sandbox campaign - map size/scale?

[S'mon]

150x150 miles at 5 miles/hex is a good scale for a sandbox that can accommodate low to mid level play; in 4e probably the whole of the 1-10 Heroic Tier. There's space for a BBEG's Fortress of Evil as well as a home base, a large town or two, allies' homes, mysterious forests, swamps and plains, etc.

Re use of hexes - I say use them as a GM mapping tool, but don't tell the players - "You are in hex 0820, to the west is hex 0720..." - describe the terrain naturally. I don't like giving players blank/undetailed hexmaps as player mapping tools, for me it damages immersion. A player map should either be something the PC could find in-game, or just let them access the GM map if necessary, but don't refer to it in-play.

 

[Ydars]

Ben Robbins also stated that the PCs should make their own map, and that the GM should not correct it, even when it is inaccurate. as that is how it would really be.

One of the things I find inspiring is the way he describes how PCs would navigate. Instead of allowing them to say "we head north" he would actually describe the terrain and ask the PCs how they would navigate and which landmark they would make for. This really hit me hard because it is exactly how we navigate when we go riding in Mongolia. It would also really help to fix certain locations in the PC's minds and would help to make things like rivers and other locations a very important means of coralling players in the early days of the campaign: I would put all the low level areas near a small river, to make them easier to navigate to and all the higher level areas places that can only be found by having a fairly good knowledge of the geography (or by blundering around which is dangerous).

Oh and for those of you surprised that Ben Robbins does't like hexes: he is a sandbox guru but is not at all old school. He sort of invented sandbox again without ever knowing how it was done back in the day. Of course you can use hexes if you like, I just don't like them particularly. They are convienient in the same way that McDonalds is convienient: in a horrible, "I can't be bothered to prep properly" sort of way. I want my maps to show "Scale-back ridge" and "Mossy tarn" and the "Hill of stones" and for that you need to be able to zoom in with a vector map. You don't need to be an artist, you can just use blobs as the PCs should NEVER be allowed to see the map: exploration is HALF the fun. However, YMMV!!

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Also, there's no reason why your sandbox campaign can not also be a "points-of-light" campaign.

When you play online games such as Bardur's Gate, and you have to get from one "area" to the next, does it matter how far A to B is? To me, all that matter is that you got there unhindered (or not) and you're off on your next adventure.

I use "points of light" in a different manner. To me, it means little islands of relative civilization and safety amidst the unknowns and danger of wilderness. This is pretty much the default setup of the "wilderness" in the original D&D books.

For example, a typical domain might include a lord's castle and a handful of attendant villages, with the influence of the castles stretching in a twenty 20-30 mile radius. (The villages would be within that radius.) Traveling within that radius is relatively safe.

There might be a handful of other such "points of light" on the map. However, the wilderness area between them is just as important as the points of light, themselves. In fact, without the "darkness" of the wilderness, their significance as "points of light" is completely lost. It absolutely *does* matter how far it is from point of light A to point of light B. And getting there can be an adventure, in itself.

The thing about a sandbox game is that the setting isn't just a backdrop for your adventures. Instead, the setting is an integral part of the game (in a "gamist" way, not in a story setting way). In a real sense, you "play" the setting. With that kind of approach, glossing over things like distance, travel, time and resource management isn't desirable.

This kind of approach is especially satisfying when incorporating the traditional "end game" that takes place around name level in the TSR editions. Setting up a stronghold isn't just a cherry on the top of your character's story, but a gamist accomplishment, in and of itself. In fact, you might even say it's a way to "win" (not exclusive other ways to enjoy the game or succeed at it, of course). When the game setting has real context and meaning in game terms (time, distance, population/military/income resources, etc), the "end game" of setting up a stronghold and becoming a lord among men becomes a satisfying game accomplishment. (Also, while the "end game" only fully develops when the PCs have become more powerful, it can start at the very beginning.)

 

[S'mon]

Of course you can use hexes if you like, I just don't like them particularly. They are convienient in the same way that McDonalds is convienient: in a horrible, "I can't be bothered to prep properly" sort of way. I want my maps to show "Scale-back ridge" and "Mossy tarn" and the "Hill of stones" and for that you need to be able to zoom in with a vector map.

I don't understand this.

1. You can have more than one item in a hex! If the map is hand drawn, there is no limitation for use of hexes. Only in a 1-symbol-per-hex program is there a limitation.

2. Hex maps make it very easy to zoom in, eg take a 15mile hex and draw it out at 1 mile per hex.

For me, the big advantage of hexes is that you have scale right there on the map, without needing a ruler. And it looks far better than squares, which are ugly and distracting IMO.

I would certainly agree though that it works best to draw a map freeform first on blank paper, then overlay the hexes second.

 

[rounser]

Of course you can use hexes if you like, I just don't like them particularly. They are convienient in the same way that McDonalds is convienient: in a horrible, "I can't be bothered to prep properly" sort of way. I want my maps to show "Scale-back ridge" and "Mossy tarn" and the "Hill of stones" and for that you need to be able to zoom in with a vector map.

Not really seeing it. Hill of stones is hex 2301, scale-back ridge hexes 1302, 1402 and 1503 etc. and has the advantage of encouraging such detail if you use a small enough scale per hex. 1306 has a magic well, 1709 hollowed trees with corpses in them, 1611 a statue in a creek with a hidden treasure cache etc. And it's definitely prepping properly, don't know where you're coming from there.

 

[Garmorn]

I plan on using a slightly different approach. I have a mapping program that allows me to do different scale maps all from a single base map. The one that the players will use for traveling (and see if the find a map to buy will not have any hexes or other things. The scale will fit what ever is needed at the time.
A second will have all of the information that they don't have and as they explore I can move information from one layer on the map to theirs.

 

[harpy]

Just out of curiosity, is there a vector program that would let you have a "digital ruler" for distance? Something that can be set to show real world distances and not pixels or inches?

Basically, whatever zoom I'm at I could then just click and drag and get a measurement in miles/meters that is to scale at whatever zoom I'm at.

I have no problem using a vector map, as long as it can be tailored to fit the needs of the game. I don't want to be making calculations all the time.

 

[Ydars]

I just make a ruler as an object and then can move it round the map and rotate etc as I need to. If you are mapping as much distance as some people here then you will need to make several rulers for different scales.

I guess I hate hexes for fantasy because they look so SF: great for Traveller but don't feel right to me for D&D.

 

[Raven Crowking]

@ the OP:

Even if you are running a limited sandbox, such as a city setting, the types of maps and information you need are different than those for running an AP. It is basic to the sandbox that the PCs can go anywhere within it, and explore anywhere within it. In the case of a city, you should have the floorplans of interesting "targets" ready, simply because you know that the PCs probably will go there. I am talking about the kinds of places that thieves and rogues tend to consider "marks", as well as the sewer system, City Hall (or equivilent), parkland (for druids and rangers), etc.

In an AP, you need only detail the areas that are "part of the adventure" -- the rest of the map can be fuzzy at the edges.

Consider also bounding your sandbox with hard edges.....places that are difficult for the PCs to traverse. Eventually, of course, the PCs will traverse them anyway, expanding the sandbox (there is a "box" in sandbox, but it is not absolute), but you will at least have some time/notice to prep new areas.

Also consider having gates/portals to other parts of your world.....i.e., other limited sandboxes that the PCs can explore in addition to the main sandbox. Consider them as being akin to sublevels in an Old School dungeon. Thus, in a temperate zone campaign, the Gate of the Palm might lead to a desert oasis and the ruins thereabout. Of course, the PCs might choose to stay there, changing what the "main" sandbox is. As long as you have prepped these areas for their exploration, it is all good.

I should also mention that your sandbox probably should have a "default adventure location". One of the advantages of the Old School Megadungeon is that, if the players have no other ideas, they always have somewhere to go/something to explore/some place to loot. Consider locating one or more prominent ruins, dungeons, or other scary places for this purpose.


RC

 

[rounser]

Along with hexes, another good cheat for sandboxes is to use geomorphs for urban areas. The Lankhmar: City of Adventure book had them, as does the dungeon magazine with the adventure Goblin Fever in it.

This way, you can detail a geomorph or eight, flip them round and change the names of NPCs and shops when reusing the geomorph but keep the underlying floorplans and adventure hooks and encounters until encountered or used.

Come to think of it, I know at least one dungeon geomorph product was released, which could also have sandbox prep possibilities...never seen them though, are they any good?