Sanguine Productions withdraws from Origins Awards

[Synicism]

For the record, Sanguine is an indie game company that produces Ironclaw and Jadeclaw (furry-type fantasy RPG's).

I don't know how to really justify this.

The only difference between Delta Green (which is clearly excluded) and, say, Freeport: City of Adventure (for which an exception has been carved out) in terms of award categories is that Freeport is published by a different company than its "base" game (D&D) while Delta Green is all done in house.

Frankly, all the d20 stuff out there should be excluded from best RPG. There's already a category for them: Best Roleplaying Supplement.

 

[Glyfair]

did they allow Birthright, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, etc...to compete each time T$R added a new spin on the old.

I hope they aren't allowing campaign worlds in this category (like the aforementioned Freeport). I think the exception that perhaps should be carved out by new "systems."

For example, is "Spycraft" a roleplaying game or a supplement? To me, it doesn't seems more like a related game rather than a supplement. I'm sure back in the day Runequest & Call of Cthulhu would be considered different roleplaying games, even they they both used the same base system.

The main question I would ask, if I was charge of making the decision, is whether it's fair to exclude publications because they choose to follow the d20 license? After all, if they had more carte blanche & could include the character creation rules, I'm sure they would (at least in those I expect the consideration would be for). If Spycraft or Dragonstar had included these in the publication, then they would be clear entries in the category.

I can see both sides, but I truly feel that the decision was made to even the field and not exclude those because of a clause in a contract they choose to abide by.

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Kichwas]

actually, i think Origins is right.

You think Origins is right that d20 books should be allowed to compete not as Best Suppliment but as best RPG?

That's the Origins stance.


Under the new rules, Sovereign Stone and Dragonstar can compete as new RPGs, not just new Suppliments.

(those two are a year too early though)

Is the Kalamar Player's Guide a new RPG, or a new suppliment?

undr the new rules, it could try for new RPG... but Fuzion's Usagi Yojimbo could not if it were to have come out during this past year rather than when it did.

They both are using open systems. Usagi Yojimbo is actually a full game, but it's not d20, so it doesn't get the exception.

Not only is it muddling the concept of what an RPG is, it's giving d20 an unfair bias (it already has an -unfair- edge from market share, now it has a bias as well).

 

[diaglo]

You think Origins is right that d20 books should be allowed to compete not as Best Suppliment but as best RPG?

no, i think Origins is right in that they should lump them all together.

 

[Psion]

The only difference between Delta Green (which is clearly excluded) and, say, Freeport: City of Adventure (for which an exception has been carved out) in terms of award categories is that Freeport is published by a different company than its "base" game (D&D) while Delta Green is all done in house.[/b]

I'm not sure of the extent to which Delta Green is stand-alone, but I can say that I wouldn't be comfortable having Freeport enter as a game. If that's the extent of their changes, then I would be compelled to agree that's a bad call.

That said, from what I understand, their sour grapes are over the inclusion of things like Spycraft and T20 that are not the same game as D&D. Someone who has the full skinny, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Glyfair]

Some History

Here's the history of the Best Roleplaying Game/Rules at the Origins awards:

It doesn't exist until 1977. In 1977 Dungeons & Dragons wins it (indeed, wins "All Time Best Roleplaying Rules," "Greatest Contribution to the Hobby" & "Adventure Gaming Hall of Fame.") In 1978, there isn't any roleplaying in the Origins Awards.

"Best Roleplaying Rules"

1979 - Commando - SPI
1980 - Dragonquest - SPI
1981 - Call of Cthulhu - Chaosium
1982 - Behind Enemy Lines - FASA
1983 - James Bond 007 - Victory Games
1984 - Twilight: 2000 - GDW
1985 - DC Heroes RPG - Mayfair Games
1986 - Ghostbusters - West End Games
1987 - Star Wars - West End Games
1988 - GURPS Basic Set, 3rd Edition - Steve Jackson Games
1989 - Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition - TSR
1990 - King Arthur Pendragon, 3rd Edition - Chaosium
1991 - Vampire: The Masquerade - White Wolf
1992 - Shadowrun, 2nd Edition - FASA
1993 - Traveller: The New Era - GDW
1994 - Castle Falkenstein - R. Taslorian Games
1995 - Mage: The Ascension, 2nd Edition - White Wolf
1996 - Deadlands - Pinnacle

"Best Roleplaying Game of..."

1997 - Legend of the Five Rings Roleplaying Game - Alderac
1998 - Star Trek: The Next Generation RPG - Last Unicorn Games
1999 - 7th Sea Roleplaying Game - Alderac

"Best Roleplaying Game"

2000 - Dungeons and Dragons - Wizards of the Coast
2001 - Adventure! - White Wolf

So, for perspective, that's the history of the award. You'll notice a lot of trends & omissions (all the military games winning in the early years).

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Desdichado]

It seems to me as if the rules are clear, but outdated. Clearly the rules were not written anticipating the OGL and the ability of games like T20 (for instance) to exist. Therefore, to exclude them on a technicality seems to be elitist in the extreme and completely counter to the spirit of the rules.

I'm with Psion on this one: Sanguine seems to be throwing a childish temper tantrum about competing products that are likely to beat them.

 

[CaptainCalico]

I think Sanguine is in the right. If a product does not include the rules for character generation and experience than it is a supplement, not a stand-alone game, no matter how distinct the flavor text might be.

 

[D-rock]

Technicalities and the letter of the rules should never come before the spirit of the rules.

 

[Greatwyrm]

My question is, what has Sanguine produced lately that would have qualified for the best RPG category? I don't keep up on everything, but I haven't seen anything from them in quite a while.