D&D 5E Sanitizing Curse of Strahd (+)

[Retreater]

You are right of course. I was just wondering, with all the baggage surrounding the Vistani, how far WotC would even be willing (or even able) to go. Can the Vistani play their usual role in Ravenloft without relying on negative stereotypes of the Romani? Can they play any role without relying on those stereotypes? I'm sure that it's possible. I'm very unsure how WotC is up for that task. Hell, I'm fairly certain I'm not up for that task, which why is I'm changing them the way that I am.

They are based on a stereotype that is inherently negative, which is pervasive in popular culture (especially in gothic horror like Dracula that inspired Strahd).
If I had a player of that heritage, I would certainly ask for their input before running the adventure. I would be prepared to not run it at all.
Their role as human minions of Strahd is important to that story. The fact that they're based on Romani culture is not important to the story.

 

[Gradine]

They are based on a stereotype that is inherently negative, which is pervasive in popular culture (especially in gothic horror like Dracula that inspired Strahd).
If I had a player of that heritage, I would certainly ask for their input before running the adventure. I would be prepared to not run it at all.
Their role as human minions of Strahd is important to that story. The fact that they're based on Romani culture is not important to the story.

That's my take, but I also want to take care and note that, as @doctorbadwolf said, "whitewashing" the setting isn't a whole lot better of a solution.

 

[prabe]

That's my take, but I also want to take care and note that, as @doctorbadwolf said, "whitewashing" the setting isn't a whole lot better of a solution.

If you feel up to it (and I mean no insult by that--I don't think I'd get it particularly right), you could make them something of a Creole culture; IIRC, a mix of cultures. They could come from anywhere/everywhere, drawn by the Mists (or whatever) and they'd have all sorts of cultural bits that might not be universally shared among them.

 

[MGibster]

Their role as human minions of Strahd is important to that story. The fact that they're based on Romani culture is not important to the story.

At the time Castle Ravenloft was written, most Americans wouldn't know a Romani if he or she walked up to them in broad daylight and laid a big wet kiss right on their lips. Even in recent years, I've met Americans who were surprised to learn that those people from old horror movies were based on real people. Even a word that is typically seen as a pejorative in much of Europe to describe the Romani isn't universally thought of as a slur here in the US and was still used for the titles of shows broadcast on cable.

I think it would be a shame to be rid of the Romani influence in Ravenloft in its entirety. For me, I think the worst depiction of the Vistani came with 2nd edition of D&D when they were their own race instead of just being regular humans. If you present the Vistani as real people I don't think there's much of a problem. Some of them serve Strahd willingly while others do so out of fear. Even in Curse of Strahd they're not all bad.

 

[Guest 6801328]

At the time Castle Ravenloft was written, most Americans wouldn't know a Romani if he or she walked up to them in broad daylight and laid a big wet kiss right on their lips. Even in recent years, I've met Americans who were surprised to learn that those people from old horror movies were based on real people. Even a word that is typically seen as a pejorative in much of Europe to describe the Romani isn't universally thought of as a slur here in the US and was still used for the titles of shows broadcast on cable.

I think it would be a shame to be rid of the Romani influence in Ravenloft in its entirety. For me, I think the worst depiction of the Vistani came with 2nd edition of D&D when they were their own race instead of just being regular humans. If you present the Vistani as real people I don't think there's much of a problem. Some of them serve Strahd willingly while others do so out of fear. Even in Curse of Strahd they're not all bad.

I gotta admit that I just like the Romani flavor. And, I hate to further admit, until a couple of years ago it would never have occurred to me that it was disrespectful.

So what I would want to do is talk to some actual experts...my ideal would be a Romani academic who studies the culture and its role in society...and get some clarity on what tropes are problematic, or not. Like the colorful wagons: is that a point of cultural pride, like horses are for cowboys, or is that a wince-worthy stereotype?

 

[Charlaquin]

I gotta admit that I just like the Romani flavor. And, I hate to further admit, until a couple of years ago it would never have occurred to me that it was disrespectful.

Yeah. One thing complicating the Vistani problem in particular is that the problem isn’t just negative stereotypes. It’s also romanticization. And the two are so entangled with one another, it’s really hard from an outside perspective to sort out what good representation would even look like.

In the bright side, in that one blog post where WotC first announced changes to the depiction of the Vistani in two upcoming products, they mentioned that it was with the help of a Romani writer. I was disappointed with the limited extent of the changes in the CoS errata, but I’m holding out hope that whatever the other product is, will address the issues in a way that is satisfying from a Romani perspective.

I’ve also heard from Romani online that the 4e take on the Vistani was mostly pretty good, apart from the fact that it maintained the cringey tambourines and headscarves aesthetic.

 

[Retreater]

That's my take, but I also want to take care and note that, as @doctorbadwolf said, "whitewashing" the setting isn't a whole lot better of a solution.

I agree. It's great to have representation in our games. But when the basis of that representation in the setting has been a negative stereotype, I don't know how to fix it within Curse of Strahd. Like if you were to have a Romani-inspired culture in the Forgotten Realms, without the baggage of being allied with an archvillain surrounded by towns that shun you for being a disreputable, alcoholic, promiscuous people.

 

[MGibster]

Yeah. One thing complicating the Vistani problem in particular is that the problem isn’t just negative stereotypes. It’s also romanticization. And the two are so entangled with one another, it’s really hard from an outside perspective to sort out what good representation would even look like.

I don't think we can expect D&D to have a good representation of any real life culture let alone the Romani. The Vistani may have been inspired by the Romani, at least a particular vision of them from the past, but they are most certainly not Romani.

 

[MGibster]

I agree. It's great to have representation in our games. But when the basis of that representation in the setting has been a negative stereotype, I don't know how to fix it within Curse of Strahd. Like if you were to have a Romani-inspired culture in the Forgotten Realms, without the baggage of being allied with an archvillain surrounded by towns that shun you for being a disreputable, alcoholic, promiscuous people.

Even in the original Ravenloft module the Vistani were a little more complicated than that. Madam Eva helps the PCs out by reading their fortune for example. In Curse of Strahd, some of the Vistani are willing allies and some of them do what he tells them because they're afraid of him.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't think we can expect D&D to have a good representation of any real life culture let alone the Romani. The Vistani may have been inspired by the Romani, at least a particular vision of them from the past, but they are most certainly not Romani.

They certainly aren’t Romani, but it would be asinine to pretend they aren’t based on them, and any depiction of the Vistani that hopes not to run afoul of racist tropes against them would do well to consult actual Romani to help with the writing and development.