SAS D20 -- A disappointed view

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Something that's puzzling me is this: if GOO was trying so hard to stay away from "DnD in Tights", why put out a d20 version in the first place? Would not the point be to try and get a part of the d20 fan base by emulating and expanding upon a system that a lot of gamers clearly like? By taking the "d20 but not d20" approach, one that seems to be trying to stick as close to the original mechanics as possible while still being able to slap on a d20 logo, the impression communicated is one of playing people for suckers to get their cash. If the writers thought the original system was so great as to surpass the inherent mechanics of what most d20 gamers consider the key components of the d20 system, why then bother with putting out the new book at all?

Now, I'm not slamming d20 SAS or the original, as I've not yet played either, but I am asking a legitimate question. Why bother producing a d20 book that you've stated you put a great deal of effort into staying a way from the d20 mechanics and elements? Why not just spend the time and effort into producing more products for the Tri-Stat version (especially if it's as good as everyone here says)? Color me confused.

 

[Frilf]

Ease of integration with other d20 stuff is always a concern (*epecially* if it claims to be part of the same system), but I'm willing to give SAS d20 a go. The game looks like fun and that's really the bottom line to me. So, it's on the shopping list. BTW, I've played Champions for years and if SAS has a streamlined supers combat system, I say *YEAH*! It took forever to resolve a combat in Champs, although I love the system dearly. So what if I can't neatly integrate supers and Cthulhu? I'll take supers done well a la carte I might even give the Tri-Stat version of SAS a try, as well, although I am heavily biased toward the d20 version at the present time. Oh, well. That's what makes horse racing, I s'pose.

Cheers!
>>Ian

 

[Samurai]

What makes a game "d20" is exactly what Jeff said... a d20 roll to determine stuff. Pretty much everything else is optional. That said, I still think they kept too much baggage from D&D. IMO, levels and classes do not belong in a superhero game. I have always felt this way, from 1st ed Heroes Unlimited till the present day. It just feels "wrong". That is one of the main reasons I'm sticking with Tri-stat instead of d20 SAS.

What they did was make a d20 game that stays away from the D&D elements (which are many and varied), not the d20 elements (which are few and basic.) That will please some and not others... such is life.

 

[Vigilance]

So... as I understand the viewpoint expressed by Samurai and whisper_jeff, as long as you roll a d20 to exceed a target number, it's a d20 game?

Anything else, races, classes, levels, attacks of opportunity, *FEATS*, make the game "D&D in tights"?

That sucks. I happen to like those rules and think they fit very well into a game that has a classic four-color feel.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Salutations,

I thought the d&d-in-tights was referring to the mentality of the game being about dungeon crawls and incremental power increases.

Super heroes don't tend to increase in power over time (comic book-wise) and what works in a fantasy adventure just would not fly for a super hero adventure- so you need to tweek the rules to fit the different style.

FD

 

[Samurai]

Actually, the game has classes and levels, which I don't care for in a supers game... they didn't get rid of those...

Feats are duplicated by the powers in many cases... Accurate and attack combat mastery replaces weapon focus and other "bonus to hit" type feats, defensive combat mastery replaces dodge, the magic and metamagic feats are not needed, Highly skilled replaces skill focus, etc... why have both feats and powers if they do pretty much the same stuff?

 

[Darke]

Super heroes do not increase in power? Sure?

I recall many temporal and real power surges for super heroes (Spawn, Rogue, Wolverine, Jean Grey/Phoenix and on and on)- and another point is the "learning curve" - even if you have the same powers at the same strenght all the time, you can handle them better as you use them more often.

Take a look at 4 Colors 2 Fantasy - that's a d20 super heroes game done right. And it's not D&D in tights. It's d20!

I don't know the book yet, but it sounds like they reduced the d20 to a simple dice - and that's not the point.

If I buy a d20 game I want it to be highly compatible to my other d20 books - added rules and options = fine - a whole change even in skills (silly one that!), no feat use = crap

My opinion as a customer

das Darke

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Super heroes do not increase in power? Sure?

I recall many temporal and real power surges for super heroes (Spawn, Rogue, Wolverine, Jean Grey/Phoenix and on and on)

Yeah, but they tend to be the exceptions or the victem of bad writing (especially Spawn).

Spiderman, FF, Cap, Hulk, and more- they may have had short lived changes in stories, but over-all- they have the same powers now that they did back then.

and another point is the "learning curve" - even if you have the same powers at the same strenght all the time, you can handle them better as you use them more often.

That is a good point, but that curve- in most cases- ends after the first year.. and sometimes after the first issue. After their rookie time, they usually don't continue to learn.

Not that I am saying any of that is good or bad- it is the state of comic books.

FD

 

[Samurai]

No one is saying heroes are stagnant and never change or improve their abilities... Tri-stat has experience awards, about 1 Character Point and a couple skill points every few game sessions on average. Considering that starting characters usually have 125-150 Character points (to buy powers, stats, etc) and 30 skill points at chargen, this is a fairly slow progression. You don't see most characters in comics increase to 20 times their intial power during their careers! They don't begin like Robin and end up like Superman! That method is fine for fantasy wizards and warriors, but not supers, modern horror, etc.

 

[Falanor]

"Ok, I can address most of your points by simply stating that SAS d20 was never intended to be D&D in tights." -- whisper_jeff

I don't think anyone wanted D&D in tights. If they did, why not play D&D. The problem I see is that you seem to think D&D is synonymous for D20, which it isn't.

"No. They aren't. They are a cool (or kewl, as may be the case) part of D&D and various other d20 mechanic games but they are not a key component of d20." -- whisper_jeff

Actually you could consider it a very core part of the D20 system, what with it being internally tied directly towards a characters level.

"Because D&D players are familiar with it? Sure, but we aren't making D&D. We are making the best game system possible for a superhero game using the d20 system mechanic." -- whisper_jeff

Actually wouldn't it be best to do it because D20 players are familiar with it, not just D&D players?

As far as Comic book characters not increasing in power...

Green Lantern increases in power, Quasar, Darkhawk, the characters from Legacy, Superman's gone through countless ability increases (after all he used to only be able to 'Leap tall buildings in a single bound' because...he could only leap them not fly), Spidey did when he became Cosmic Spidey, and again when JMS took over (something wierd be goin on with him), Punisher did as well, Wolvie had only a healing factor before and gained an adamantium skeleton, Rogue gained the powers of Marvel Girl perminatly instead of temporarily...I could go on, but I'd have to exhume my collection of comic books to do so....