whisper_jeff
First Post
I won't address all the specific points because there's now a lot of them <grin> but I will try to address some of the larger issues that seem to be coming up in this discussion.
First, it is my belief that the _core_ of the d20 system is a d20 roll, plus bonuses against a DC. Everything else is an extension of that. Yes, most d20 system games use feats. Currently. I expect, within the next year or two, that will occur less and less frequently. I feel that many of the coming games will start diverging from the commonly accepted expressions of the d20 system and find new expressions of it that best suit the specific product. M&M, for example, has removed classes because they feel that they are not appropriate to a superhero game. Many people, however, view classes as a vital and integral part of d20. I agree with Green Ronin - they aren't and M&M will still be a d20 product despite the lack of classes (though I decided to keep classes in SAS d20 - go figure... <grin>). It will simply be a new take on the existing structure. I suspect many other games will follow the same example that GOO and GR (and others I'm almost certainly overlooking) have undertaken.
Thus, with that in mind, SAS d20 _is_ a d20 game. Anyone who is familiar with d20 will easily be able to use and play the game with very little in the way of a learning curve. They need to learn a new character creation system (a point based system) and need to forget some minis-oriented rules for combat. Aside from that, the game runs very similar to D&D. Yes, the skill list is different but if a player can't figure out what the Burglary Skill means, then there are greater issues at hand than game design. <grin>
Next, someone suggested that I think D&D is synonymous with d20. That's actually exactly the opposite. I see d20 as quite a distinct entity from D&D. I suspect that a lot of gamers see the two as the same and thus their expectations for SAS (and other d20 products) may not mesh with the product, but d20 and D&D are very different. d20 is a game system. D&D is an IP. Tri-Stat is a game system. BESM, Heaven & Earth, Sailor Moon, HKAT!2, Tenchi, and SAS all use the Tri-Stat game mechanic but each one is different in their own way which best suits the specific IP. BESM, Sailor Moon, and Tenchi are very similar while Heaven & Earth and HKAT!2 are quite different. If you know Tri-Stat, however, playing each of the games is very easy despite their specific differences.
As for level advancement. In most cases, comic book characters do not gain in power (there are more than enough examples to prove the contrary that I won't make it a statement of fact but one of generality) but they _do_ increase in experience and ability. That is one of the reasons I left level advancement in SAS d20. Some may disagree with the choice, but I feel that the level progressions demonstrate increased experience and ability more than increased power.
Also, there were numerous design decisions that had to be made about "do I use the traditional d20 mechanic or adopt the Tri-Stat-esque mechanic?" "Should I keep this or use that?" In all cases I tried to deliver what was best for the genre _and_ what I felt most d20 players would _enjoy_ the most. Damage, for example, could have remained as it appears in Tri-Stat: a maximum damage value and the player rolls to determine what percentage of that value is inflicted upon the target. It would have worked very well with d20 and streamlined combat a fair amount. I felt, however, that the average d20 player enjoys "chucking dice" and thus went with the 1d6+2 base damage per 20 points of Tri-Stat damage to give players the chance to throw a handfull of dice to determine how much damage they inflict. Yes, it slows the game down a bit but I believe that it is what a d20 player wants. There are numerous other examples such as this where I had to determine what was best to suit the genre while trying to deliver what the average d20 player wanted. Often, there were long discussions (arguments) in the office about the choices being made but it was all with the goal of creating the best game system possible using the d20 game mechanic.
Why use the d20 game mechanic when so many elements of the finished product are similar to Tri-Stat? Well, first, the only real elements which are very similar to Tri-Stat are the rules for character creation. Tri-Stat has an excellent character creation mechanic and it was easy to port most of it over to the d20 game mechanic. Changes had to be made, obviously, but much of it remained the same thereby providing d20 players with a system that provides the maximum amount of freedom and control during character creation. As for the actual game mechanics, it quickly became obvious that many (most, in fact) of the combat/system modifiers in d20 were the same as they are in Tri-Stat. Thus, converting the mechanics was very simple since the two systems match on many surface levels. While the core mechanics of the two games are very different, the modifiers are very similar. Thus, when presenting the game mechanics, I was presented with a choice - present them using the traditional d20 format or utilize the traditional Tri-Stat format. I chose the later to make it clear to anyone flipping through the book in a game store that this is, as it says on the back cover of the book, a product that "pushes the boundaries of the d20 system with exciting and innovative new rules." I did not want people to think that they were buying a traditional d20 product because they are not. This product was designed to expand outwards from the traditional expression of d20 while maintaining as much of its core as possible. Those with the book should look closely and you will find that the system remains true to d20. Modifiers are the same, in 99% of the situations, as they are in the PHB. The presentation may be different, but the game is the same.
Anyhow, this is the long and rambling way to say that GOO fully recognizes that SAS d20 pushes the boundaries of what is expected of a d20 game. We fully acknowledge that it may not be everyone's cup of tea. We also feel that it is a product that many d20 gamers will embrace as something exciting that expands the scope of what d20 can do.
Also, as I said, GOO is not intent on perverting the d20 system (for lack of a better phrase). We do have a couple of d20 products planned for the next year or so that will utilize a more traditional approach to the d20 system, one with which d20 players are comfortable. That said, however, we are not willing to rest on the work of others before us. When we feel that a product deserves some system innovation, we are going to innovate and push the boundaries. It may not be for everyone but it is in the best interest of the playability of the product.
Expect other publishers to do the same - I fully expect several products to come to market over the next year or two that will go outside the previously accepted norms of the d20 system presentation. Some of them will crash and burn while others will innovate the d20 system scene.
Ain't publishing fun? <grin>
First, it is my belief that the _core_ of the d20 system is a d20 roll, plus bonuses against a DC. Everything else is an extension of that. Yes, most d20 system games use feats. Currently. I expect, within the next year or two, that will occur less and less frequently. I feel that many of the coming games will start diverging from the commonly accepted expressions of the d20 system and find new expressions of it that best suit the specific product. M&M, for example, has removed classes because they feel that they are not appropriate to a superhero game. Many people, however, view classes as a vital and integral part of d20. I agree with Green Ronin - they aren't and M&M will still be a d20 product despite the lack of classes (though I decided to keep classes in SAS d20 - go figure... <grin>). It will simply be a new take on the existing structure. I suspect many other games will follow the same example that GOO and GR (and others I'm almost certainly overlooking) have undertaken.
Thus, with that in mind, SAS d20 _is_ a d20 game. Anyone who is familiar with d20 will easily be able to use and play the game with very little in the way of a learning curve. They need to learn a new character creation system (a point based system) and need to forget some minis-oriented rules for combat. Aside from that, the game runs very similar to D&D. Yes, the skill list is different but if a player can't figure out what the Burglary Skill means, then there are greater issues at hand than game design. <grin>
Next, someone suggested that I think D&D is synonymous with d20. That's actually exactly the opposite. I see d20 as quite a distinct entity from D&D. I suspect that a lot of gamers see the two as the same and thus their expectations for SAS (and other d20 products) may not mesh with the product, but d20 and D&D are very different. d20 is a game system. D&D is an IP. Tri-Stat is a game system. BESM, Heaven & Earth, Sailor Moon, HKAT!2, Tenchi, and SAS all use the Tri-Stat game mechanic but each one is different in their own way which best suits the specific IP. BESM, Sailor Moon, and Tenchi are very similar while Heaven & Earth and HKAT!2 are quite different. If you know Tri-Stat, however, playing each of the games is very easy despite their specific differences.
As for level advancement. In most cases, comic book characters do not gain in power (there are more than enough examples to prove the contrary that I won't make it a statement of fact but one of generality) but they _do_ increase in experience and ability. That is one of the reasons I left level advancement in SAS d20. Some may disagree with the choice, but I feel that the level progressions demonstrate increased experience and ability more than increased power.
Also, there were numerous design decisions that had to be made about "do I use the traditional d20 mechanic or adopt the Tri-Stat-esque mechanic?" "Should I keep this or use that?" In all cases I tried to deliver what was best for the genre _and_ what I felt most d20 players would _enjoy_ the most. Damage, for example, could have remained as it appears in Tri-Stat: a maximum damage value and the player rolls to determine what percentage of that value is inflicted upon the target. It would have worked very well with d20 and streamlined combat a fair amount. I felt, however, that the average d20 player enjoys "chucking dice" and thus went with the 1d6+2 base damage per 20 points of Tri-Stat damage to give players the chance to throw a handfull of dice to determine how much damage they inflict. Yes, it slows the game down a bit but I believe that it is what a d20 player wants. There are numerous other examples such as this where I had to determine what was best to suit the genre while trying to deliver what the average d20 player wanted. Often, there were long discussions (arguments) in the office about the choices being made but it was all with the goal of creating the best game system possible using the d20 game mechanic.
Why use the d20 game mechanic when so many elements of the finished product are similar to Tri-Stat? Well, first, the only real elements which are very similar to Tri-Stat are the rules for character creation. Tri-Stat has an excellent character creation mechanic and it was easy to port most of it over to the d20 game mechanic. Changes had to be made, obviously, but much of it remained the same thereby providing d20 players with a system that provides the maximum amount of freedom and control during character creation. As for the actual game mechanics, it quickly became obvious that many (most, in fact) of the combat/system modifiers in d20 were the same as they are in Tri-Stat. Thus, converting the mechanics was very simple since the two systems match on many surface levels. While the core mechanics of the two games are very different, the modifiers are very similar. Thus, when presenting the game mechanics, I was presented with a choice - present them using the traditional d20 format or utilize the traditional Tri-Stat format. I chose the later to make it clear to anyone flipping through the book in a game store that this is, as it says on the back cover of the book, a product that "pushes the boundaries of the d20 system with exciting and innovative new rules." I did not want people to think that they were buying a traditional d20 product because they are not. This product was designed to expand outwards from the traditional expression of d20 while maintaining as much of its core as possible. Those with the book should look closely and you will find that the system remains true to d20. Modifiers are the same, in 99% of the situations, as they are in the PHB. The presentation may be different, but the game is the same.
Anyhow, this is the long and rambling way to say that GOO fully recognizes that SAS d20 pushes the boundaries of what is expected of a d20 game. We fully acknowledge that it may not be everyone's cup of tea. We also feel that it is a product that many d20 gamers will embrace as something exciting that expands the scope of what d20 can do.
Also, as I said, GOO is not intent on perverting the d20 system (for lack of a better phrase). We do have a couple of d20 products planned for the next year or so that will utilize a more traditional approach to the d20 system, one with which d20 players are comfortable. That said, however, we are not willing to rest on the work of others before us. When we feel that a product deserves some system innovation, we are going to innovate and push the boundaries. It may not be for everyone but it is in the best interest of the playability of the product.
Expect other publishers to do the same - I fully expect several products to come to market over the next year or two that will go outside the previously accepted norms of the d20 system presentation. Some of them will crash and burn while others will innovate the d20 system scene.
Ain't publishing fun? <grin>
