SAS D20 -- A disappointed view

[Falanor]

"I mean, look, someone used Cosmic Spiderman as an example of him gaining a level?" -- Furn_Darkside

Really? I did? Lemme check. Oh wait...no I didn't! I said simply that he is one of the many super heroes that gained in powers over time...wow...completely outta context...way to go!

 

[Furn_Darkside]

"I mean, look, someone used Cosmic Spiderman as an example of him gaining a level?" -- Furn_Darkside

Really? I did? Lemme check. Oh wait...no I didn't! I said simply that he is one of the many super heroes that gained in powers over time...wow...completely outta context...way to go!

It was entirely within context- the original point is that comic book heroes don't incrementaly increase in power like a d&d character.

Would you like to explain to me how cosmic spiderman is an example of an incremental increase in power? It seems to me it was a one-shot story line, that, when it ended, left spiderman back at his power level previous to becoming cosmic.

FD

 

[Falanor]

I never said it was an incremental power increase as you would put it. I simply stated that he gained powers. And if you take into account stories like What if? there is a Spidey out there that has kept the Cosmic Powers and has even increased those. No, on a whole the Cosmic Powers are something that are a one shot increase in a dire time of need (incase you've never read much on the abilities). Yet for some reason that was unknown at the time Spidey kept the powers longer than any other, and he even got a bit better with them than others.

Another interesting group of people with similar "incremental power" increases would be the group of Specials in JMS's 'Rising Stars'. I'll try to keep posting more if others would like...

Edit: Something else to the 'Rising Stars'; they would have some special disadvantages that would be about pulling power from the same pool, thus some sort of level capping method that would rise as others died off...

 

[whisper_jeff]

Feats do a lot of very good things to the game, chief of which is to allow characters access to a wide range of abilities that lessen the stereotyping of class, since characters of all classes can take any given feat if they meet the prerequisites.
-----
I think our character creation system provides as much, if not a great deal more ability to customize one's character beyond the boundaries of character class. I agree that feats do that but I feel the SAS character creation mechanic accomplishes it in greater detail and freedom.

-----
I personally find feats "core" to d20, and find it a little troubling that you just dismissed Lizard's complaint of there being no feats with "its not core to the system, lots of folks will do it in the future"
-----
I did not dismiss his complaint. I explained why we did what we did. I recognized his complaint and was well aware that I was going to get complaints of this sort early on in the design process. I believe I even mentioned that I was happy that Lizard called attention to the design differences between SAS d20 and traditional d20 so that those who want the later can avoid the product because it clearly will not deliver what they are looking for. If someone, however, is looking for an innovative approach to d20 that provides an excellent range of character creation and a strong feel of the superhero genre, then SAS d20 may well be your game.

Please don't confuse explaining the rationale for our decisions with dismissing someone's comments. I am reading this thread closely and carefully because, as I've said, we plan on publishing more d20 material. Since I know most of them will be designed with the "traditional d20" feel in mind, I am paying close attention to what elements fans consider important to the d20 experience. That said, when we feel a product deserves a non-traditional treatment, we'll go non-traditional. We felt SAS deserved just such a treatment. It isn't going to appeal to everyone but it likewise wouldn't have appealed to everyone had we done it as a traditional d20 game... We made what we felt was the best game for the genre using the system.

 

[Psion]

Re: M&M is in a lot of trouble

However I think this discussion explains something, which has been bothering me. I'm apparently the only one who was less than satisfied with 4CTF (I didn't hate it so don't flame).

That depends on what you mean by "satisfied." I am satisfied inasmuch as it seems like a very useful adjuct to any other d20 system game to which I wish to add generic powers. I see it in the same light as I see the "FX: Beyond Science rules for alternity: a very liberating and flexible add on.

Will I use it instead of the Hero system or DC Heroes/BOH for supers? Not a chance. But I won't use Tri-stat SAS instead of it either. Sorry, nice attempt to emulate the flexibility of Hero, but Hero is still king of the hill AFIAC.

(And no, Hero combats don't take 3-4 hours IME. I can only imagine that people who make such claims only tried it once and never got comfortable with the system.)

Will M&M be sufficiently good to do Supers the way I like it while remaining familiar enough to justify the (IMO) inevitable inferiorities to hero? Perhaps, but that remains to be seen.

 

[drnuncheon]

It was entirely within context- the original point is that comic book heroes don't incrementaly increase in power like a d&d character.

Would you like to explain to me how cosmic spiderman is an example of an incremental increase in power? It seems to me it was a one-shot story line, that, when it ended, left spiderman back at his power level previous to becoming cosmic.

I assert that Spiderman - regular Spiderman, not Cosmic Spiderman or Alien Symbiote Spiderman or Spiderclone or whatever goofy stuff they've cooked up since then - has increased in power since his origin, both in breadth and depth. He's invented new gadgets, he's improved his webshooters, and he's become far more skilled.

In short, he's gotten better. And in a level based system, that's represented by leveling. In a point-based system, it's represented by more points. I've never seen a game system where it was impossible to improve a character, and I don't think I'd want to.

J

 

[Corinth]

It definately looks like some of you publishers completely missed the point about D20. Classes, levels, hit points and feats are the pillars that suppert the entire system and make it accessable to Joe Gamer. It certainly looks as if Deeds Not Words and Four Colors To Fantasy are the winners in this competition.

 

[trancejeremy]

Deadlands d20

I don't know why I keep defending deadlands d20 since I was thrown off a Pinnacle mailing list, but it's a really good game.


They did a good job of sticking to the d20 rules. New classes, feats, and while they did add several new skills, they did try to keep them within the general d20 framework. I think the end result was very comparable with d20 CoC (in fact, the games are 95% compatible), though not nearly as stylish. The only real difference is DL d20 has different classes, while CoC d20 has one base class (a somewhat improved Expert). But that fits DL because archetypes are very very common in the old west.

It has a slightly different feel than Deadlands, but that is a good thing. I never liked how starting characters could be Texas Rangers or walking undead.

 

[Samurai]

The ironic part, Trance, is that people seemed to want Deadlands d20 to be just like the original in feel, including many of the mechanics like spellcasting, but just use a d20. On the other hand, when a publisher sees that and then makes a d20 game that is similar to the original, the fans cry it is not enough like D&D!

The thing is, in both cases I really like the original versions and have no plans to switch to the d20 adaptation, no matter how similar or different it is...

 

[Levekius]

Re: Re: M&M is in a lot of trouble

That depends on what you mean by "satisfied." I am satisfied inasmuch as it seems like a very useful adjuct to any other d20 system game to which I wish to add generic powers. I see it in the same light as I see the "FX: Beyond Science rules for alternity: a very liberating and flexible add on.

Will I use it instead of the Hero system or DC Heroes/BOH for supers? Not a chance. But I won't use Tri-stat SAS instead of it either. Sorry, nice attempt to emulate the flexibility of Hero, but Hero is still king of the hill AFIAC.

Say, Alan, are you going to review 4CtF? Because I admit it seems way too good to be true. Many of the 4CtF reviews seem like cheerleading to me so far. 4CtF perhaps is a little too tied with EnWorld.

But regardless, when YOU will do a review of this baby, I'll believe it.

PS: Not that I like Tri-Stat that much, but have you considered the Tri-Stat version of SAS? Some folks on RPG.net are describing it as a smoother but just as versatile and detailed supers game as Hero/Chamions.