SAS D20 -- A disappointed view

[teitan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: D20 Game?

When I point this out, I am not nitpicking.

Nor am I bashing.

Im just expressing my opinion as a games designer and consumer.

Sorry Vigilance, I wasn't meaning you but was referring to people like the original poster. I agree with all your points actually.

Jason

 

[Wolfx]

Since this thread is about how SAS d20 lacked the d20 playability and compatibility, I just thought I would point out some things I "LIKED" instead.

1. Few games come with a detailed map like SAS. I for one was very happy to see a company supply one with the main product and not give the "coming in a future supplement" speal.

2. I liked using a variant to creating a character since I use the point-based method from the DMG in my other games. I can get the character I want without the randomness of dice.

3. I thought the fact that the powers replaced the feats made perfect sense. With the new attribute by Jeff you can increase what is in your game by adding in anything you want.

4. Most of all I liked the fact that a company decided to break out of the standard d20 shell template of game creation, while still being a d20 game. I have already added in new races to represent my world, and had no trouble making them compatible in the SAS from their original source.

Just my opinions.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

The ironic part, Trance, is that people seemed to want Deadlands d20 to be just like the original in feel, including many of the mechanics like spellcasting, but just use a d20. On the other hand, when a publisher sees that and then makes a d20 game that is similar to the original, the fans cry it is not enough like D&D!

The thing is, in both cases I really like the original versions and have no plans to switch to the d20 adaptation, no matter how similar or different it is...

This here is the crux of my point. If fans bitch that a d20 conversion isn't close enough to the original system, well, duh, obviously these people should stick to the original system and I wonder why they'd be looking for something else to begin with. However, people who are looking for a d20 conversion of a system want something where they can take whatever of their WotC and OGC publishers' material they like and plop it into that game with a minimum of conversion. For example, I can take any monster out of the Monster Manual and stick it into CoC d20 with just a little tweaking for insanity and by removing the alignment. That's what I want in a d20 conversion, not something that is just a few steps off from the original but uses a d20 instead of, say, a d6.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Personally, I think the "problem" of not being D&Dish enough only comes up for those who are unwilling to use/learn any other game system. Those of us who regularly use 20+ different systems find the minor changes easy to understand. But I have said this before... I think in many ways, all the variations and alternate 3rd party rules for d20 will end up choking it. There are a half-dozen different ways to do ANYTHING, even just for D&D! From mass combat to ship rules to spells/spellcasting to PrCs, races, and feats, NO ONE can use all of it at once, and more and more things directly conflict with one another. If a bunch of people show up at a con to play a D&D game, and each player brings a 5th level character made with rules/feats/PrCs/spells from the core books plus 2d6 random 3rd party books, the characters probably won't be fully compatable!

This is a highly speculative assumption on your part. Using myself as an example, and I highly doubt that I am atypical, I have a lot more game systems than just d20 on my shelves. In fact, I'm running a FRed game at the moment with plans to start up a Chaosium CoC game afterwards, despite the fact that I'm currently writing a number of d20 products. I've yet to meet a gamer who wasn't at least willing to look at another game system, but when they see a d20 logo on a product, that logo gives rise to certain expectations of how the product may be used. Besides, I think that even if the gamers are "pro-d20, anti-everything else" as you are saying, that doesn't make their opinion any less valid as they would still represent a portion of the market.

As for your comments about people bringing characters and compatability, again I'd have to say you're making an assumption. First, if they were all showing up to play in the same genre then it is highly likely the characters would be almost entirely compatible (if not necessarily balanced), but of course they wouldn't be fully compatible if someone showed up with a fantasy character, someone else with a sci-fi alien, another with a gunslinger, and so on, but if they are built closely enough around the same mechanics, these problems can be solved in a few minutes.

 

[Aenwulf]

I fail to see the problem with SAS D20 changing a few rules. But then again, I still can't see how anyone considers the D20 system to be D&D. True, it bears a small resemblance to 1st edition D&D, but thats about it. Oh, wait a sec, you mean WotC changed a few things? Made some innovations? Hmm, isn't that what GOO is doing? Change, embrace it, or grow old and die...

 

[Geoff Watson]

They didn't change just a few rules. They changed nearly everything.

Ability scores are different(Human average 8-9 instead of 10-11).
Ability score bonuses are different (no Dex or Str bonus to hit; Str bonus to damage is different).
Skills are different. Not just adding new 'modern' skills, they completely change the skill list.
Combat rules are different (Random AC, Defense rolls, armour, Initiative).

What didn't they change?

Of course, they added Powers (the main part of a superhero game ruleset) and removed the D&D specific stuff (spells, magic, monsters, non-human races) as expected. That stuff should be changed for different genres.

It really seems to be Tri-stat SAS with 'roll a d20 instead of 2d10', with the d20 logo added to trick d20 players into buying it.

Geoff.

 

[Samurai]

Hey, if the ploy works, more power to them!

A stated reason MANY publishers give for using d20 is to get new players to explore their setting and hopefully give the original system a try. If everything is converted to D&D-in-new-clothes, players will never even glimpse the other system and their view of the setting may be radically affected by the huge shift in rules. The best way to accomplish the stated goals is to use a hybrid system that:

1) Is close enough to d20 that it will ease in the new players.

2) Is close enough to the original system to retain its feel and give players that "glimpse" into something different.

3) makes conversion and dual statting as easy and quick as possible since EVERY book the company does for the line from then on will need those dual stats!

SAS d20 does all of those things, from what I've heard and read...

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I fail to see the problem with SAS D20 changing a few rules. But then again, I still can't see how anyone considers the D20 system to be D&D. True, it bears a small resemblance to 1st edition D&D, but thats about it. Oh, wait a sec, you mean WotC changed a few things? Made some innovations? Hmm, isn't that what GOO is doing? Change, embrace it, or grow old and die...

Aenwulf, when making comparisons, it's always best to first make sure that they're analagous.

 

[Vigilance]

Hey, if the ploy works, more power to them!

A stated reason MANY publishers give for using d20 is to get new players to explore their setting and hopefully give the original system a try. If everything is converted to D&D-in-new-clothes, players will never even glimpse the other system and their view of the setting may be radically affected by the huge shift in rules. The best way to accomplish the stated goals is to use a hybrid system that:

1) Is close enough to d20 that it will ease in the new players.

2) Is close enough to the original system to retain its feel and give players that "glimpse" into something different.

3) makes conversion and dual statting as easy and quick as possible since EVERY book the company does for the line from then on will need those dual stats!

SAS d20 does all of those things, from what I've heard and read...

Sam, you seem to have this opinion that everyone who would like a d20 game to *BE* a d20 game is a rabid opponent of any other system.

I and many of the others would strongly disagree.I play other games than d20. I enjoy them.

And, while I personally feel d20 is the best system going (Hero being a close second), I have nothing against them.

I just feel, when I buy a d20 game, it should be highly compatible with my other d20 games, allowing me to borrow rules. This isn't about "d20-versus-the world".

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=244&PHPSESSID=4e987304316bf1bbf37fab04c7f93e0a

 

[Blacksad]

You can't eliminate levels since you would be changing how you apply the effects of experience. And unless your game is stagnant, you'd have to describe a new process for applying the experience.

The trick here (and this is even in wizards FAQ) is to give an alternate Table 3-2 (page 22 of the PHB). You remove the character level part, you have an Xp table that increase every 500 Xp, you then add something like 8 character point every 500 Xp, and voilà.

You provide cost for everything, you just don't explain how to add things.

I suppose that this is how GoO did it, though their best superhero game using d20 mechanics requires the PHB, which I find somewhat hard to swallow, given that Godlike wished to provide d20 mechanics for their game for those that didn't wish to use teir own very good mechanics, and this did't required the d20 logo, and allowed them to provide full character creation rules.