DarkMaster
First Post
I don't think that basing your analysis on direct fight is enough. The human with more feats and skills might endup more useful for a party than a dumb combat utilityJames McMurray said:
Savage Species (3.0?) Half-Ogre Race: Balanced?
- Thread starter Tyrol
- Start date
Nyarlathotep, +3 is LUDICROUSLY overpriced. Full OGRES only get a +2 (and 4 giant Hit Dice).
And James, if it werent for TFW having already assigned them a +2 before he left, I'd've done the very "two racial hit dice" fix for half-ogres in Exodus. IMO, it's a much better fix than increasing their LA to +2.
And James, if it werent for TFW having already assigned them a +2 before he left, I'd've done the very "two racial hit dice" fix for half-ogres in Exodus. IMO, it's a much better fix than increasing their LA to +2.
James McMurray
First Post
I like the 2 racial hit dice also. I could go with either one and be happy. +1 is definitely too low though.
Darkmaster: Depending on level, at +1LA the human may only end up with one feat more. Given that both characters are focused warriors, its doubtful that the huma's feat is going to be something that isn't combat related. The increased damage, more AoOs, and ability to take feats like Large and In Charge mean that Large size has to be at least +1 La all by itself.
Darkmaster: Depending on level, at +1LA the human may only end up with one feat more. Given that both characters are focused warriors, its doubtful that the huma's feat is going to be something that isn't combat related. The increased damage, more AoOs, and ability to take feats like Large and In Charge mean that Large size has to be at least +1 La all by itself.
DarkMaster
First Post
James McMurray said:
Possibly, but I found it sad to base the LA solely on combat ability. A 4 th level rogue or bard is not evaluated on it's combat ability but also on what it can bring to a group. The 1/2 ogre usually don't bring anything more than being a powerfull combat machine, it even usually have a hard time initimidating the enemy with no skills and charisma.
Maybe it comes from the fact that I have a hard time with monster as player character, at the begining the players are all exited by their capability but 95% they will quickly feel very limited.
scouting rogue: Ok there is that huge minautor in that room
Wizard: I will pull out the 1/2 ogre from the magical hole for this fight.
rogue: A wizard what a magical item you created, now we have the advantage of this guy when we need it but not the disadventage of carrying him around.
In the last campaign I allowed a monstre PC that is exactly how he felt after a few session.
I have a player that realy wanted to play a half-ogre. I let him but made it a ECL+2.
It has been remarkably well ballanced. Then again, I made sure to create adventures where mr half-ogre would realy shine through and others where being that big was realy a pain in the players rump (small fighting quarters, running into a group of kobold barbarians that all raged & encircled him at one point, all getting flanking & thier small size bonuses, etc....). I think you just have to be more creative a GM with a weird or unusual race.
Bottom line is unusual race, unusual campaign. If you don't want the extra workload, don't allow the race!
Slingbld~
It has been remarkably well ballanced. Then again, I made sure to create adventures where mr half-ogre would realy shine through and others where being that big was realy a pain in the players rump (small fighting quarters, running into a group of kobold barbarians that all raged & encircled him at one point, all getting flanking & thier small size bonuses, etc....). I think you just have to be more creative a GM with a weird or unusual race.
Bottom line is unusual race, unusual campaign. If you don't want the extra workload, don't allow the race!
Slingbld~
Savage Wombat
Hero
Not to mention that the half-ogre is therefore disgustingly more powerful than the half-giant in XPH, making it look all the more sickly by comparison.
James McMurray
First Post
A fighter brings little to the table except for being a combat machine. A half-ogre just accentuates this even more by brnging even more to the table in the fighting department.DarkMaster said:
When looking at LA you have to determine it based on the class's best fit. If a race gives +6 to charisma you have to look at it from a sorcerer's and bard's viewpoint, not a fighter's.
After that, you've got a best case scenario LA worked out. From there its much easier to have your DM let you go downward if you are making a less efficient member of the race (such as a Half-ogre wizard or sorcerer).
Dont compare anything useing the fighter, as written the fighter is currently only a marginal step above an npc class anyway. But that is a topic for another thread 
I prefer comparing useing the barbarian anyway, it is easier.
With that comparison, and at +2, the halfogre is rediculously behind at early levels. At later levels it is even more paramount because all of the halfogres bonuses, and more, can be gained by a simple, low level, spell. Trading in 2 levels for that is just.. well.. bad.
Even without the spell though the other comparisons are striking. They are behind by 2hd and 2x con (giving equal starting cons this evens out at 'very' high levels, until then the nonhalfogre is ahead, sometimes a very large amount), they are behind by 2 BAB (this effects many feats and multiple attacks, having 2 attacks at a slightly lower damage is preferable over one attack at slightly more a good portion of the time, useing the proper feats the damage issue becomes less paramount as well), 2 levels of class abilities (for the barb this is things like uncanny dodge, new rages, DR, and so forth.. some levels this is such an extreme difference as to be laughable), 2 levels of skill points (that, and the halfogre has an int penalty, way behind in skill points, at higher levels the nonhalfogre could have double the skill points!), behind by a feat most of the time, behind by half of a stat point, behind by 1 point in good saves all of the time and a point in bad saves most of the time.
At +1 they are pretty strong. Too strong? depends on the campaign. At +2 they are just laughably weak in comparison. So given the choice between +2 or 2 racial hd it is pretty obvious, as that at least allows them to stay even in a couple of the areas. Personally I like to make all halfogres also feral It actually winds up making the character pretty equal to what a +2 should be, as some of their bonuses simply cancel.
I prefer comparing useing the barbarian anyway, it is easier.With that comparison, and at +2, the halfogre is rediculously behind at early levels. At later levels it is even more paramount because all of the halfogres bonuses, and more, can be gained by a simple, low level, spell. Trading in 2 levels for that is just.. well.. bad.
Even without the spell though the other comparisons are striking. They are behind by 2hd and 2x con (giving equal starting cons this evens out at 'very' high levels, until then the nonhalfogre is ahead, sometimes a very large amount), they are behind by 2 BAB (this effects many feats and multiple attacks, having 2 attacks at a slightly lower damage is preferable over one attack at slightly more a good portion of the time, useing the proper feats the damage issue becomes less paramount as well), 2 levels of class abilities (for the barb this is things like uncanny dodge, new rages, DR, and so forth.. some levels this is such an extreme difference as to be laughable), 2 levels of skill points (that, and the halfogre has an int penalty, way behind in skill points, at higher levels the nonhalfogre could have double the skill points!), behind by a feat most of the time, behind by half of a stat point, behind by 1 point in good saves all of the time and a point in bad saves most of the time.
At +1 they are pretty strong. Too strong? depends on the campaign. At +2 they are just laughably weak in comparison. So given the choice between +2 or 2 racial hd it is pretty obvious, as that at least allows them to stay even in a couple of the areas. Personally I like to make all halfogres also feral
It actually winds up making the character pretty equal to what a +2 should be, as some of their bonuses simply cancel.James McMurray
First Post
What low level spell gives size Large, +6 strength, +2 con, and +4 AC?
You can disagree with the fighter comparison if you want to, but fighter is the benchmark warrior class. And even against a barbarian, he really only loses an iterative attack. Everything else is compensated by stats, AC, and size.
I don't see any level break where +2 for a half ogre barbarian is unbalanced, much less "laughable."
Note that in comparisons I ignore any level earlier than (LA x 2) + 1 because playing any LA race before that point is giong to be underpowered unless the race has massive con boosts to make up for lost hit points.
You can disagree with the fighter comparison if you want to, but fighter is the benchmark warrior class. And even against a barbarian, he really only loses an iterative attack. Everything else is compensated by stats, AC, and size.
I don't see any level break where +2 for a half ogre barbarian is unbalanced, much less "laughable."
Note that in comparisons I ignore any level earlier than (LA x 2) + 1 because playing any LA race before that point is giong to be underpowered unless the race has massive con boosts to make up for lost hit points.
James McMurray
First Post
Also, half-ogres cannot be feral. That template only applies to humanoids and monstrous humanoids, not giants.
Similar Threads
