Savage Species confusion... do I have this right?

[Bear]

Anyone familiar with the Savage Species rules supplement? Do I have this right?

As a player, I want to play a Natural Lycanthrope, a werebear.

I'm using the following sources:
The SRD
The Savage Species book
and The Savage Progressions web article for Wererats

First off, how do I start this? As I understand it, I'll be adding a template of Natural Lycanthrope (3 levels) to a base creature as levels... BUT WHAT CREATURE IS THAT? A human? 'Bear' levels? I thought Natural Lycanthropes were there OWN creatures. This part confuses me the most.

After establishing what the base creature is, and after taking only ONE level of Lycanthrope template, I have the option of taking as many levels of 'bear' as I feel like (the DM will break down 'bear' progression with HD = levels) up to the maximum HD/level (6, in this case).

ONE level of 'bear' is all it take for me to get the animal's Hit Dice and hit points (in all forms), saving throw bonuses (in all forms), skill points (in all forms), racial skill bonuses (in all forms), conditional skill modifiers (in animal form), ability score modifiers (in hybrid or animal form), natural armor bonus, and special attacks (such as the brow bear's ability: Improved Grab). Additional levels grant other things, such as bonus feats and improvements to stats based on the werebear creature, as deemed fit by the DM.

AT ANY POINT IN THIS PROGRESSION, I may multiclass into any class as I see fit. Furthermore, levels of Natural Lycanthrope and Bear do not count towards multiclassing for purposes of XP penalty. (I found this to be pretty damn amazing and quite liberal... but I point to this sentence in the web article: "Levels in the animal class may be taken at any point after the character takes 1 level in the lycanthrope template class. He is also free to take levels in other classes between levels of the template class and the animal class, as desired. The animal class, like the template class, does not count when determining whether a character takes an XP penalty for multiclassing.")

To close, I'm pretty sure I've got the meat and bones part of it done... the part im having the hardest part with is the first level.

What is the base HD for the levels of Natural Lycanthrope? What are my base statistics? If lycanthrope isnt its own race/class, then to what am I adding the template levels of Natural Lycanthrope?

Can anyone help?

 

[Leopold]

base class for lycanthropes is human. You take levels in Lycanthrope (BEAR) till you complete the ENTIRE amount of levels and then you can take a class level.

At no point in the game are you allowed to multiclass unless it's the DM's option. By SS rules you must complete the ENTIRE amount of levels for the race before you take a level in a class. If the DM allows you otherwise then it's a bonus but it's not often unless certain circumstances apply.

so your level progression goes:

1st level: Lycanthrope (bear)
||
X last level in Lycanthrope (Bear)
1st Class level

 

[Bear]

Cool... thank you for the reply.

Then there's a discrepancy between the web article and the SS book. I'll let my DM decide how he wants to handle the multiclassing.

But still:

So base race for Natural Lycanthrope is Human...

So at first level, I'm rolling up a Human with the first template level of Natural Lycanthrope (werebear)... what are my HD then? What do I roll for HP? Whats my bab?

It would seem the WoTC website is down at the moment. But if you could see it (click the link in my primary post), the web article shows the Natural Lycanthrope Template Levels are still just a template... not actual class levels. they only provide stuff you tack on to an existing class.

Do I get to take my 'bear' levels then starting at first level? They have a HD listed and a bab and stuff...

 

[Bear]

As of this posting, the WoTC site is still down... so that link still appears broken.

As soon as the site comes back up, the link will work and ya'll can see what I'm talkin' about.

 

[Conaill]

base class for lycanthropes is human. You take levels in Lycanthrope (BEAR) till you complete the ENTIRE amount of levels and then you can take a class level.

At no point in the game are you allowed to multiclass unless it's the DM's option. By SS rules you must complete the ENTIRE amount of levels for the race before you take a level in a class. If the DM allows you otherwise then it's a bonus but it's not often unless certain circumstances apply.

Actually, based on the web enchancements for gaining a template (which came out *after* Savage Species), these restrictions don't hold for templates:

From Gaining a Template Midcampaign:

Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar.

And from Half-Dragon and Wererat Template Classes:

Thus, in addition to the 2 or 3 levels offered via the appropriate lycanthrope template class, each kind of lycanthrope also has a separate (optional) class progression for his animal abilities. Essentially, a character progressing as a lycanthrope multiclasses into the template class and can also multiclass into the appropriate animal class if desired.
Levels in the animal class may be taken at any point after the character takes 1 level in the lycanthrope template class. He is also free to take levels in other classes between levels of the template class and the animal class, as desired.

One additional correction to Bear's first post:

ONE level of 'bear' is all it take for me to get the animal's Hit Dice and hit points (in all forms), saving throw bonuses (in all forms), skill points (in all forms), racial skill bonuses (in all forms), conditional skill modifiers (in animal form), ability score modifiers (in hybrid or animal form), natural armor bonus, and special attacks (such as the brow bear's ability: Improved Grab). Additional levels grant other things, such as bonus feats and improvements to stats based on the werebear creature, as deemed fit by the DM.

Nope. The article states "Taking levels in the appropriate animal template class (or just 1 level, as is the case with the dire rat animal class) gives the character...". For the wererat example in the article, the "rat" progression is only a single level, so you get the whole kit-n-kaboodle. The "bear" form has 6 HD, so these benefits will be spread out over the entire 6 levels of "bear".

It's somewhat unclear what the animal levels actually buy you, but following a strict reading of the article, a wererat without the additional rat level would still get the dire rat and hybrid forms, but would *not* actually get the +6 Dex and +2 Con bonuses etc. that come with those forms. A natural werebear without his full 6 racial bear levels would essentially transform in a weakling were-bearcub, without the full Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Personally, I'd force players to take all levels in the template class before they advance in any other class, the same reason I want them to complete monster classes: They change the race, and that shouldn't enable them to pick the cherries.

In the case of lycanthropes, who get a racial class and a template class, I'd allow them to mix the levels of these two like they desire, but they have to complete both before they continue with their normal classes.

 

[Bear]

Well, the link works now. WoTC site has come back up.

Here's what I've come to understand in chatting with folks and really scrutinizing the rules.

The first oversight on my part is: there are no 'levels' in the were-creature template per say, that mimic class levels. The 'levels' in were-creature don't have hd, they aren't class levels. Bascially they are only additions to an already existing class level; were-creature levels add on Level Adjustments.

The problem here, where the web article screws up is, it doesn't explain when to add these progressive were-template 'levels' as a character advances.

So I roll up a 1st level warrior (planning to become a werebear). Now I add 1 level of the were-creature template giving my character an ECL of 2 (+1 from warrior and +1 from one lvl of the were-creature template).
Fine...
I go adventuring and I gain 3000 xp. I get to advance to 2nd level.
DILEMA: What happens here?
Do I take a level in warrior and add on the next level of were-creature. That would get me two levels for the price of one tho! No good!
So is it that I tack on a second template level of were-creature, raising my ECL to 3? I get no HD adjustment for this... so I've got a ECL 3 creature with 1 hd of warrior. Wow, that's dangerous. You'd be a fragile as an egg. BUT youd have your 5/silver damage reduction... /ponder

Wow, all of that is confusing.

MY SUGGESTION FOR NATURAL LYCANTRHOPES is just to break down the full fledged monster as presented in the MM as you would a trolls or a minotaur. Its got a 10 ECL (+1 for warrior, +3 for were-creature and +6 for bear HD) so break it up into a 10 level monster progression class.

Plain and simple... what's wrong with that?

Well, for one you couldn't freely multiclass then...

/ponders some more.

 

[The Souljourner]

Two things -

1.) You don't have to take warrior.... and if you don't have to, you obviously shouldn't (since warrior levels suck!). Your first level can be whatever class you want - fighter, barbarian, etc. Ooh... thought - be a monk! Then it won't matter that your armor doesn't fit when you change to large size, and the +2 wisdom you get will help with your AC, along with the increased natural armor... and because you're large, you'll be da man when it comes to grappling, especially with the monk's improved grapple. Wow, I sense some major smackdownage there. Enlarge person still works on lycanthropes whose base race is humanoid, so you could be a huge grappler with improved grapple and +16 strength. Talk about awesome! Plus your monk damage is increased as well... 1d6->1d8->2d6 plus strength bonus. Ouch. Let's see... at 10th ECL with enlarge person in hybrid form assuming 16 strength to start, you have 4 BAB (crappy), +12 (34 strength!), +4 improved grapple, +8 (huge) = +28 to grapple checks, and you do 2d6+12 per successful grapple check for damage.

2.) When you level up, you either take a level in a normal class, or one of the level adjustment levels of lycanthropes, or a racial level in werebear. You don't get two.

You say the level adjustment levels don't count as levels, and I say they do, kind of. They're equivalent to a character level (thus ECL), so you have to take them like one.

Yes, if you take the three level adjustment levels of lycanthrope before taking anything else, you'll be hurting bigtime in the hitpoints department, not to mention saves and base attack bonus. I suggest scattering the lycanthrope levels among the werebear levels, so that you're not taking the hit all at once.

Someone mentioned the base race for lycanthropes is human, but that's not necessarily true. Any humanoid or giant can be the base race for a lycanthrope, as long as there's only one size difference between the base race and the animal race. So you could be a dwarf-wearbear, or a troll-werebear (nasty!), or a halfling were-cat, but not a halfling werebear (since that would be two size categories different).

You kind of have to make up the animal levels progression yourself, since they don't give that in the article you listed above (except for wererat, which is stupid, because it only has one level, so obviously you just get everything with that level). Talk with your DM about how to spread out the stat increases and abilities across the animal levels.

-The Souljourner

 

[Leopold]

my mistake on it I thought that he was starting from level 1 and using the SS stuff.

Now to answere the question at hand, if it wasn't answered already, once you start taking template levels you must keep taking template levels until complete. Once you stop your done, no more advancement in that for you, unless your DM is kind and benevolent, which I am not.

So it would be for an ECL of +1

1st level Fighter/1st Level Lycanthrope (Werebear)

NOTE: the midlevel template acquiration process is valid for this and it's been explained already, so I won't repeat it.

 

[Conaill]

once you start taking template levels you must keep taking template levels until complete. Once you stop your done, no more advancement in that for you

Not according to the WotC web enhancements. Here's the relevant sentences from the larger quotes I posted above:

Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar.

Levels in the animal class may be taken at any point after the character takes 1 level in the lycanthrope template class. He is also free to take levels in other classes between levels of the template class and the animal class, as desired.