Savage Species: Feral Question

[DarkMan]

If you were to add the Feral template to a standard pc race (elf, for example), would the new creation receive the special attacks or special qualities (i.e. darkvision, fast healing) as if he/she had 1 monster hit die, or none? I'm aware that class levels don't count as monster hit die for progression in these special abilities.

 

[LokiDR]

It does not say "monster hit die" only hit dice. Hence you count all hit dice, not excluding class levels. This is similar to the half-celestial template and the abilities it grants based on HD.

 

[DarkMan]

Well, I also thought that. But under special attacks, it reads:

"It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows." -SS p. 116

Also, I believe I heard (or read) that for templates, abilities that change with hit dice use monster hit dice, not class levels. The exception being the half-fiend and half-celestial, where it specifically says "class level."

 

[melkoriii]

Well, I also thought that. But under special attacks, it reads:

"It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows." -SS p. 116

Also, I believe I heard (or read) that for templates, abilities that change with hit dice use monster hit dice, not class levels. The exception being the half-fiend and half-celestial, where it specifically says "class level."

The thing is that in SS.

There are no Monster HD. You have Monster Classes.

 

[LokiDR]

Well, I also thought that. But under special attacks, it reads:

"It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows." -SS p. 116

This is right after it says "A feral creature gains additional special attacks depending on it Hit Dice. . . ." That looks like a typo. Is there errata on SS yet?

Also, I believe I heard (or read) that for templates, abilities that change with hit dice use monster hit dice, not class levels. The exception being the half-fiend and half-celestial, where it specifically says "class level."

I have never seen that. Do you have a reference? There aren't many templates that give more abilites based on HD though.

 

[DarkMan]

I have never seen that. Do you have a reference? There aren't many templates that give more abilites based on HD though.

Rich Redman said on the Wizards board that inherited templates' scaleable abilities are based on monster HD when you add the template. The introductory section of the template chapter in SS seems to hint at this at times, but its all very subtle and non-specific.

 

[Naar]

As Darkman said, Rich Redman clarified that the Feral template only takes into account monster HD when determining the benefits.

Think of it this way: if you want to make a Feral Elf, you're applying the Feral template to a 1HD Humanoid. However, Elves don't advance by adding more Humanoid HD, they advance by adding classes, so they don't get beyond Fast Healing 2, Improved Grab, and so on.

Besides, isn't a +1 LA a bit small for Pounce, Fast Healing 5, Darkvision 120ft. and all the other nice things the Feral template adds?

 

[LokiDR]

Think of it this way: if you want to make a Feral Elf, you're applying the Feral template to a 1HD Humanoid. However, Elves don't advance by adding more Humanoid HD, they advance by adding classes, so they don't get beyond Fast Healing 2, Improved Grab, and so on.

Besides, isn't a +1 LA a bit small for Pounce, Fast Healing 5, Darkvision 120ft. and all the other nice things the Feral template adds?

An elf without a class level isn't a character. Rich appeartly doesn't notice this inconsistancy. Or the ambigous writing of the template in the book. Also, just because someone says it on a messageboard doesn't make it official.

And if you don't want unbalanced, don't use Savage Species

 

[DarkMan]

Think of it this way: if you want to make a Feral Elf, you're applying the Feral template to a 1HD Humanoid. However, Elves don't advance by adding more Humanoid HD, they advance by adding classes, so they don't get beyond Fast Healing 2, Improved Grab, and so on.

This takes me back to my original question: Does that feral elf get those abilities, or does he technically have no monster HD when he trades it in for a class?

 

[LokiDR]

This takes me back to my original question: Does that feral elf get those abilities, or does he technically have no monster HD when he trades it in for a class?

This makes no sense. Just do this: only use the HD the character has when they made a feral creature. That should fix the problem.

I maintain it is written as using all HD.

 

[DarkMan]

If it uses all HD, how could the template possibly be balanced. The feral temp contains the following characteristics, all of which are considered min. +1 LA, according to the 2nd chapter:
Unbalanced ability scores (albiet only by 2)
Fast Healing
Improved Grab
Natural Attacks
+6 Natural Armor

And, if you qualify, Pounce, Rake and Rend! Even WITH using just monster HD, it seems ridiculous to consider a +1 LA... moreso than the half-ogre, even.

 

[Hardhead]

And if you don't want unbalanced, don't use Savage Species

God knows that's true. It's become the standard reference for over-the-top effects in my group, i.e. "Book X has some powerful stuff in it, but it's not like it's Savage Species or anything."

 

[DarkMan]

And if you don't want unbalanced, don't use Savage Species

I think, with a few noticeable exceptions, the book is balanced. The majority of monsters are just ill-suited as player characters.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Of course, there are some pretty underpowered things in there as well.

Have you seen the Anthropomorphic Toad? It's a Small Monstrous Humanoid. It's the size of a kobold or a halfling. It's bipedal.

And it has a speed of five.

How do you even describe something the size of a halfling moving at a speed of 5? And what happens if he wears Medium Armor?

One level of Barbarian triples his movement rate.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

I think, with a few noticeable exceptions, the book is balanced. The majority of monsters are just ill-suited as player characters.

There are things in that book I just consider cheesy, such as the blindsight spells, fuse arms spell, girralians blessing spell, the basic weapon that gives improved grab, among others.

There is lots of style in there, but in the hands of powergamers, it can be devistating.

Hyp:

Of course, there are some pretty underpowered things in there as well.

Does that really make the book balanced? I think both extreems show a lack of good design.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Does that really make the book balanced?

Never claimed it did

-Hyp.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Bump

 

[spunky_mutters]

I think Savage Species is a great book, but I don't think that it is possible for it to maintain balance while achieving the goal of making any monster available for play. Monsters combine abilities in ways that would never be considered for classes, and I don't think that is picked up on enough by those using SS. It is not really that they make combat monsters ( although they can), but that the selection and combination of abilities in many monsters is such that they skew the dynamics of play in certain ways. I almost think there should be a warning sticker on the cover.

As far as the feral template, I would consider an Elf a 1HD monster. It would get feral abilities as any other 1HD monster. As with anything else in the book, Caveat DM.