Savage Species- is there something wrong with me!?

[Vocenoctum]

THen why would you still call it an "ogre" if they're two different things? You way results in a lot more verbiage than necessary, and would confuse some people, with no benefit.

If you want to create a monster class progression that's different from the actual monster, then rename it the "ogre master" or something more creative than that. Then, there's a clean distinction. Don't add more layers than are necessary.

I'd rather have a monster class progression that is balanced closer to the normal class progression. The Ogre Class being a bad example since they don't have much to monkey with.

But regardless, what about the idea do you dislike besides the Naming Procedure?

 

[Vocenoctum]

Side Note:
Barbed Chains: Medium Martial weapon
18gp, 2d6 damage

I'm figuring they meant large size, but maybe they meant 2d4 damage?
theories?

 

[Eridanis]

But regardless, what about the idea do you dislike besides the Naming Procedure?

I don't like the idea of calling something by a commonly accepted name when it has differing powers from the original.

WotC took a look at the MM, said, "OK, how can we break this monster down in such a way that it could adventure with an adventurer party from 1st level without throwing everything out of whack?" They decided to create a system where you'd advnace like a class. Fair enough. Then they break down the monster into four, seven, or 20 bits (however many levels the monster class ends up being), and divvying up the monster's powers along the way. Fair enough.

My problem is giving a monster that's advancing by class different powers than one that spring full-blown from the MM, and calling them by the same name. For example, to stick with the ogre, I don't know what extra powers you'd want to give to an ogre; membranes under the arms to allow it to fly? Extra arms? A 20' tongue than hits for 1d6? Cool; go for it. But it's no longer an ogre, it's something else. Call it Eridanis' Folly. Just don't call it an ogre, because when some silly d20 publisher wants to put a monster with mosnter class levels into a module, a DM that reads it will see a party of four ogres in an encounter, and say, "Hmm. Are those MM ogres, or those stupid bat-wing long-tongue ogres from Savage Species?" The publisher needs to spend a few lines in the product talking about the new, improved ogres-that-aren't-ogres, when it would be easier to just call them eridanis' follies for clarity.

Perhaps I've misunderstood your point; if so, I apologize.

 

[UniversalMonster]

I'm 34 and I don't think it's "overpowered" or munchkinny at all. They give the ECL. An ECL for a medium sized Air elemental (for example) is 8.

So if I have an 8th level campaign, where all of the other heroes are 8th level, and for some reason we bring in a new character that makes sense in the story to be an air elemental (say the party goes travelling to the elemental plane of air, someone gets killed and it's time to bring in a new PC)..

Then I can allow the option of 'medium air elemental' as a character. Or a minotaur, or a gargoyle.. or whatever.

It's my favorite WOTC book since Manual of the Planes.

 

[Vocenoctum]

My problem is giving a monster that's advancing by class different powers than one that spring full-blown from the MM, and calling them by the same name. For example, to stick with the ogre, I don't know what extra powers you'd want to give to an ogre; membranes under the arms to allow it to fly? Extra arms? A 20' tongue than hits for 1d6? Cool; go for it. But it's no longer an ogre, it's something else. Call it Eridanis' Folly. Just don't call it an ogre, because when some silly d20 publisher wants to put a monster with mosnter class levels into a module, a DM that reads it will see a party of four ogres in an encounter, and say, "Hmm. Are those MM ogres, or those stupid bat-wing long-tongue ogres from Savage Species?" The publisher needs to spend a few lines in the product talking about the new, improved ogres-that-aren't-ogres, when it would be easier to just call them eridanis' follies for clarity.

Perhaps I've misunderstood your point; if so, I apologize.

Well, for starters, I don't know where you got "adding powers".
In fact, I said lessening them in most cases. For instance, having a Mind Flayer that could only use it's mind blast 1 per day at X level, then 2 per day, then 3, or whathave you. Instead of at will.

For the Ogre, it'd just mean he gets a d8 at every level, but maybe the natural armor bonus and the ability adjustments are spread over 8th level instead. So that at any given level, he's not overpowered.


I don't like the idea of assigning HD only at certain levels, and skills and such when you gain HD, it seems cumbersome.

So, if you had my Ogre Class that takes say, 8 levels instead of 6 (gaining HD all the way) perhaps he'd be equal to a regular Ogre with 2 fighter levels, or something of the sort. But more important is that he'd be balanced with a Fighter of 8th level.

Another option would be for say a Drow to have a small 3 level class. At each level, he gains some of his powers, plus skills/ HD what ever. He gets Drow Class level 1 at Character Level 1, but the second level of Drow Class requires he be character level 4 for instance, and the third is CL 8. Then the Drow powers that would be unbalanced at 2 or 3 level wouldn't be available then.

 

[seankreynolds]

I don't like the idea of assigning HD only at certain levels, and skills and such when you gain HD, it seems cumbersome.

For any creature whose ECL is higher than its HD, you're going to have to have one or more levels where it doesn't gain any hit dice. Otherwise your monster class ends up granting more HD than the original creature, which means your monster class should have a higher ECL than how you built it....

 

[Vocenoctum]

For any creature whose ECL is higher than its HD, you're going to have to have one or more levels where it doesn't gain any hit dice. Otherwise your monster class ends up granting more HD than the original creature, which means your monster class should have a higher ECL than how you built it....

Right, I said that
Either you stretch the monster out for more levels for the same powers, or reduce the amount of powers. For some monsters, both.

(and, sure if you keep adding HD and raising the ECL because you keep adding HD... but what I had in mind wouldn't really use ECL except as a start.)

 

[Spatula]

Guess it depends on how you look at it.

If you take WotC at their word, Greyhawk is the default/assumed setting. Greyhawk uses the Great Wheel cosmology.

This doesn't mean anything as far as SS is concerned. There's no flavor, background, or anything in SS - it's a toolkit, not a treatise on how demons advance in powers. It gives the DM something to work with regardless of setting, and if they had left something out just because "that's not how in works in Greyhawk" then they are doing a disservice to DMs that are doing something different. The DMs that are sticking with the way things have worked in the past are free to ignore the demon classes. There's no change to the old flavor, because there's no new flavor presented. Just new rules options. As always, it's up to the DM to decide what does and does not belong in his/her campaign.

But also, see The Manual of the Planes. The great wheel is given as an example of what you can do with the book, but completely different cosmologies are also presented and detailed. The great wheel is no longer the defacto standard. Forgotten Realms, for example, has its own seperate cosmology now.

 

[Hardhead]

This doesn't mean anything as far as SS is concerned. There's no flavor, background, or anything in SS - it's a toolkit, not a treatise on how demons advance in powers.

SS is a D&D book, so it de facto affects Greyhawk and its cosmology. Even then, it affects the implied setting of D&D in many ways. It *is* a treatsie on how demons advance, or at least how Vrocks advance.

It gives the DM something to work with regardless of setting, and if they had left something out just because "that's not how in works in Greyhawk" then they are doing a disservice to DMs that are doing something different.

No one was doing it different until SS came out. They *could* have left the Vrocks out of it, and let you make your own class for them if you wanted to do it that way, like they did with most monsters. They *could* have made a cool class that progresses from Dretch on up to Vrocks. They *could* have at least had a note saying "this isn't how it works by defualt in D&D, but if you want to do it this way, here it is." They did none of those things, so it's now the default way Outsiders advance in 3e. It's not a variant anymore.

It is, as someone else mentioned, like finding out Elminster died by having a reference to his funeral, but no explanation as to how or why it happened.

They have Vrocks in the MM. Isn't that forcing the D&D cosmology (or at least the creatures thereof) on other settings even more than detailing how they advance? At least the former leaves more up to how an individual DM uses them! How can you argue that not detailing Outsider advancement would be more restrictive the DMs, cosmology-wise, when they give instructions how to do it yourself if you want to, anyway?

If they'd have left it out of the class section, individual DMs would be free to assume whatever they wanted about Outsider advancemnt.

The DMs that are sticking with the way things have worked in the past are free to ignore the demon classes. There's no change to the old flavor, because there's no new flavor presented. Just new rules options. As always, it's up to the DM to decide what does and does not belong in his/her campaign.

Technically, everything is optional if you Rule 0 it. But this wasn't a blue-book DM guide. It was a tan-book player guide. Everything in there is now default turned on, unless a DM specifically turns it off in his campaign world.

But also, see The Manual of the Planes. The great wheel is given as an example of what you can do with the book, but completely different cosmologies are also presented and detailed. The great wheel is no longer the defacto standard. Forgotten Realms, for example, has its own seperate cosmology now.

The Manual of the Planes details the Great Wheel as the default D&D cosmology. It even calls it the "D&D cosmology" throughout and specifically says it's the setup for Oerth the "core D&D world." So yeah, other worlds have different cosmologies, but D&D's default is the Great Wheel. I mean, look at adventures like Bastion of Broken Souls or the recent articles in Dragon. The definitly take place in the Great Wheel.

 

[Spatula]

Technically, everything is optional if you Rule 0 it. But this wasn't a blue-book DM guide. It was a tan-book player guide. Everything in there is now default turned on, unless a DM specifically turns it off in his campaign world.

Unture, any book that is not core (PHB, DMG, MM) is strictly optional. That's why the "core" designation exists. And of course the DM can Rule 0 the core stuff as well if he likes.