Savage Tide and Difficulty Level

[Retreater]

I was wondering if anyone has started the Savage Tide Adventure Path yet? If so, I was wondering if you could comment about the difficulty level of the adventures thus far.

You see, it seems lately that most official modules have become too difficult for my group, no matter what the party configuration. Articles by Wolfgang Baur on the WotC website state that groups should be able to handle encounters 1-2 ELs above the average party level without breaking a sweat and that boss encounters should be 3-4 ELs above the average party level. My group (of 5-6 players) regularly struggles with ELs 1-2 above their levels, and I'm sure one of the boss encounters would result in a TPK.

We had to abandon the Shackled City Adventure Path at the beginning of the 4th module in the hardcover - the whole thing seemed impossibly challenging. In fact, the group ran away from the 2nd module (Drakthar's Way) because it was techinically impossible for them to beat it (and even survive).

I don't want to start and stop yet another campaign, so I'd really love to hear your opinions about STAP.



A side note. My group has been sticking with the core rules mostly for character creation - meaning nothing from splat books. This is partially due to monetary issues (half of us are college students while the other half are married folks with limited budgets for gaming books), but probably the biggest issue is not wanting to carry a dozen or so hardcovers to each gaming session.

Are we having a problem because we're behind the times? Are our parties of rogue/cleric/fighter/wizard underpowered compared to teams of gensai, warforged, warlocks, dusk blades, etc.?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Having read, but not played, the first couple adventures, I don't see any reason that a well-played group using just the core rules would have any problems. Depends entirely on the DM, though. There is a range of challenges, so it does need a fairly balanced party.

Someone with a game in progress might have a few more insights, though.

 

[PatrickLawinger]

Most of the "Adventure Path" adventures from Dungeon presume a certain amount of tactics on the part of PCs. If your party doesn't have PCs that are optimized for whatever it is they are supposed to do, it will suffer.

In other words, if your Fighter uses feats for "skill focus (basketweaving)" he probably isn't going to "cut the zombie mustard."

I think that all of the Dungeon stuff can be hit pretty hard using only the core rules. At the same time, it really does depend on your party. The combat heavy encounters (and, in general, there are many) require that your players can think tactically and use all of the resources available to them.
In the end though, it is up to the DM to determine what the PCs can handle and make whatever adjustments that might be necessary.

Patrick

 

[Olaf the Stout]

My experience in reading the Adventure Paths (I haven't actually ran or played in them) and also reading various people's comments about them is that they are meat grinders. You can almost guarantee several character deaths while running the AP's, more if your group is unbalanced or does stupid things.

The other thing to remember (and a lot of people overlook this) is that the Shackled City AP was designed for a party of 6 PC's, not 4 as is the case for most adventures. I am pretty sure that the Age of Worms and Savage Tide AP assume a party of 4 PC's.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Mouseferatu]

The other thing to remember (and a lot of people overlook this) is that the Shackled City AP was designed for a party of 6 PC's, not 4 as is the case for most adventures. I am pretty sure that the Age of Worms and Savage Tide AP assume a party of 4 PC's.

You know, it's funny. The appendix of the SCAP hardcover says this, but when printed in the magazines, each individual chapter still said it was for four PCs.

I've often wondered which is correct.

 

[Wik]

Well, I'm running Savage Tide. I'm still in the first episode. My group is detailed in the sig, and while we do utilize stuff from the splat books, we're doing fairly well so far. In fact, it's been my experience that during the parts where we "break" the game, it's been using stuff from the core rules.

I think you shouldn't have too much of a problem running it, but I'd be careful - it could overwhelm your group if you're not careful, and there are a lot of cases I've seen so far where the BBEG is a good two or three levels higher than the group, and there are often more than one.

That being said, I've read the first adventure, and I circled about four or five scenes where I said "Hey, this is going to be way too tough for my group". And you know what? It wasn't. All of those scenes that I thought were going to be snags - weren't. I'm not going to go into it in detail, what with spoilers and all, but it's absolutely true. The only scene that really surprised me in it's lethality was the scene involving a few small crabs - they swarmed a PC and brought her to the negatives in one round. But that was one of those fluke scenes, and not really something I could prepare for.

In the end, yeah, you should be fine running it with a group of people who aren't hardcore D&D savants (my group certainly isn't), and you can totally do it using only core books. Just make sure you know the material, and you're prepared for places where your group could encounter a TPK.

That being said, I hope you have a lot of fun.

 

[Fat Daddy]

I'm getting ready to run STAP so I have been reading over it pretty thoroughly. IMHO it appears to be pretty well balanced in that it will be challenging but do-able if played smartly but deadly if just stumbled and bumbled through. That's how I like 'em.

Edited for missing words.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

I've played through (most) of the first module and so far the only harsh part was when we went off script and our DM threw 4 ixi-whatever scouts at us while we were all in a rowboat in addition to most of a standard encounter. That went poorly.

We've been smart and definitely used tactics and trickery in setting up the other fights. So far there is no reason, other than stupidity or overconfidence, that the PC's can't control when a majority of the fights take place.

Spoiler

We were really nice to the Lotus Blossoms too. We kept trying to talk long after the module had all but said we should just go beat them senseless. Then the ixi-scouts showed up and we raided the headquarters and killed Rowan.

Edit: It does contain some weird magic items. They look core but they have some issues...

Spoiler

Like the wand of Animate Dead we just took of Rowan. There is a spell that hurts my head when put into a wand. Happily I'm playing a devoted follower of the Stern Lady so I'm certain I'll find a good use for it.

 

[Hussar]

Retreater, a few questions if I may.

Do you as DM roll your rolls in the open? That probably accounts for most of my lethality, a total reluctance to fudge in favor or against the players.

Would you characterize your players as capable tacticians? This is really going to play into things. As was mentioned, if your players are very high rp sorts who think that taking power attack is for munchkins, then the AP's are going to chew them up and spit them out. Wow, that came out condescending. That's totally not what I meant. I mean that if the players are more concerned with an immersive experience rather than a more strategic approach, then they are likely going to have problems. I noticed this in the group I played in with Shackled City. Half the group was far more into high rp mode while the other half was into the hack.

I honestly don't believe that adding splatbooks makes for much of a power difference. Think about it this way, whenever people talk about the three most powerful classes, core classes tend to come up far more than anything else.

 

[Bagpuss]

You can almost guarantee several character deaths while running the AP's, more if your group is unbalanced or does stupid things.

I would go furthur, if your group doesn't do intelligent things, then you are likely to get a TPK or at least character deaths.

For example (highlight spoiler for Age of Worms below)

Spoiler

The Mind Flayer is forshadowed in the Age of Worms, if the party doesn't do research and prepare properly to face the mind flayer then they will get wasted by it's mind blast which can easily stun a whole party of that level. Spell Immunity could be used against it but only if they did the research. (It doesn't help that for some stupid reason the writer thicks that Sorceror is a non-associated class)

I've no reason to think Savage Tide is going to be any different in what it expects.