save or die 3.5

[Elder-Basilisk]

The presence of NPC sorcerors and wizards who may or may not be vulnerable to disintegrate (Rogues tend to have high touch ACs and so are probably still not a great choice for disintegrates) doesn't keep the spell changes from being a pure player nerf. It just makes them less of a player nerf than they might otherwise be.

If it is no longer instant death to monster targets but still instant death to most PC targets and most NPC targets then it's still substantially less effective in 40-70% of the cases where PCs might otherwise have used it.

You are forgetting about NPCs.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

NPC wizards should cast some defensive spells. I suggest mirror image - that works against nearly everything.

 

[yennico]

NPC wizards should cast some defensive spells. I suggest mirror image - that works against nearly everything.

Only if the cleric or wizard does not cast a greater dispelling on the NPC wizard or casts a true seeing.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

True enough. A wizard truly lives or dies by his spells.

 

[jasamcarl]

The presence of NPC sorcerors and wizards who may or may not be vulnerable to disintegrate (Rogues tend to have high touch ACs and so are probably still not a great choice for disintegrates) doesn't keep the spell changes from being a pure player nerf. It just makes them less of a player nerf than they might otherwise be.

If it is no longer instant death to monster targets but still instant death to most PC targets and most NPC targets then it's still substantially less effective in 40-70% of the cases where PCs might otherwise have used it.

Yes and I was pointing out that, by his own logic, the spell is not completly ineffective in the save or die category against appropriate challenges, i.e. npcs and thus the dichotomy he brought up was somewhat limited. For those opponents, as well as for many monsters, the effect has not substantially changed, especially in the specific level range where a spell of 6th level would typically be used. Given the availability of certain dc boosting items, this spell was completly overpowered at high levels and also worked to make the game more random in terms of combat outcome than I would have liked. Yes, much of this involved non-core items, but this spell caused greater problems with supp rules than others and thus is probably best to change for the sake of convenience.

 

[Ashe]

I guess the part about disentagrate that bugs me the most is that you are vaporizing matter! I could see that if the object you are vaporizing is larger then the volume of matter you could vaporize, then yes, massive damage would be appropriate, but anything smaller, sorry, too bad, so sad, you failed your save, you're dust.

 

[Vivictus]

I am not concerned about this. Disintegrate effected EVERYTHING. Finger of death only affects living creatures, not walls, not constructs nor undead. That's why its this way I'm sure.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

just out of curiosities sake what constructs did disinigrate work on. i know in theory it worked on them, but so many constructs were golems that were immune to magic it didn't work on constructs in practice.

And honestly I think its added functionaility was easily balanced by the to hit roll needed to succeed. Touch attack or no with a wizards bab its far from guaranteed. 14th level wizard lets say +10 AB 7 form bab and 16 dex. Facing a foe with 14 touch attack AC +2 dex +2 deflection misses on a 3 or less or 15% of the time. I'd say less than 15% of my foes are undead or constructs, though that's campaing dependent, and really while touch ACs can get really crappy for things like giants(who will make the save anyways vs both spells) touch ACs can get well beyond 14, though the wizards AB wont get well beyond 10. Probably capping at 14 or 15 if not heavily focussed on ray attacks. In fact the targets you'll likely focus your disingrates on(crap fort saves) are mor eliekly to have a higher touch AC.

 

[BryonD]

I guess the part about disentagrate that bugs me the most is that you are vaporizing matter! I could see that if the object you are vaporizing is larger then the volume of matter you could vaporize, then yes, massive damage would be appropriate, but anything smaller, sorry, too bad, so sad, you failed your save, you're dust.

But that is just part of the HP logic of D&D.

A high level barbarian can survive enough axe chops to fell a 12 foot diameter tree.

So why can't he also survive a spell that would disintegrate a section of the tree?

 

[Felon]

I am not concerned about this. Disintegrate effected EVERYTHING. Finger of death only affects living creatures, not walls, not constructs nor undead. That's why its this way I'm sure.

it also meshes better with the spell-seed concept (introduced in the Epic Level Handbook and repackaged for Urban Arcana) that I expect we may see pushed more and more over time (until we see the release of 4.0). Of course, players may not embrace the idea of custom-built spells based on a do-it-yourself Spellcraft DC, so it could wither on the vine.