save or die 3.5

[Fenes 2]

How many rolls would it take to be fun? One roll isn't fun, is three? Five? How many? What makes the game fun is risk, knowing that there are dire consequences for your character depending on how they handle situations. Without risk, where's the fun? For my money the higher risk, the more fun. Save or die makes the game better, save or massive damage .... bleh.

Well, I could turn the tables: How much risk does it take to be fun? The risk of PC death causing a level loss? The risk of permanently losing a PC? You could also make the player (not the PC) pay a hefty fine if his PC dies, that way the risk is even greater for the player, and so must be the fun he is having...

If you are all having fun you are doing it right, no matter how you play.

 

[Grog]

Thats still a crapload of damage to the monster, even if its not dead.

God forbid that the mage should just work as part of the group trying to kill the monster, instead doing it all by himself

Maybe he is. Maybe the monster he casts the spell on is just one of several. Ever think about that?

Maybe he had to cast the spell to save his life. A monster closes to meele range, he's all out of escape spells, none of his friends can get there in time to save him... He casts Disintegrate, in the old rules the monster is killed and he's saved, in the new rules it shrugs it off and crushes him to pulp next round.

Yeah, that's a lot of fun for the wizard.

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by Grog:

Maybe he had to cast the spell to save his life. A monster closes to meele range, he's all out of escape spells, none of his friends can get there in time to save him... He casts Disintegrate, in the old rules the monster is killed and he's saved, in the new rules it shrugs it off and crushes him to pulp next round.

Yeah, that's a lot of fun for the wizard.

Wow, that's a real purty strawman y'got there Grog...

I like the new disintegrate... if anything it might even be a little too good. Empowered (8th) or Maximized (9th) versions are going to essentially be Save or Die against the PCs/NPCs anyway...


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Maybe so (I have my doubts myself; fighters, barbarians, paladins, clerics, etc. will still have a chance, even against empowered or maximized versions) but empowered or maximized versions of Disintegrate will still be a sucker's bet. If you can get an opponent to fail a fort save, you might as well do it for something that doesn't require a ranged touch and is really save or die and will have a higher DC to boot (like finger of Death, Wierd, or wail of the Banshee). A lot of those even effect multiple targets.

I like the new disintegrate... if anything it might even be a little too good. Empowered (8th) or Maximized (9th) versions are going to essentially be Save or Die against the PCs/NPCs anyway...

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Except for Wail of the Banshee, those spells bounce of spell turning. Also, you won't cast them against certain opponents, and there's the occasional death ward that higher level classed opponents often have.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

yeah and shield, haste bonus to AC, dex bonus to AC, deflection bonuses, luck bonus to AC can all stop a disnigrate. There are spells and items that either directly counter effects or severly limit effects for all spells.


Considering how often people are bringing up death ward I guess they use that effect often, and maybe the same is true with spell turning. But in games I've played in a high touch AC is much more common than any of those so disinigrate is stopped a lot more often than finger of death.

The point being both spells get stoped by spells and items which one means more is campaign dependent.

End result think they should of nerfed all the save or dies.

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by Elder-Basilisk:

If you can get an opponent to fail a fort save, you might as well do it for something that doesn't require a ranged touch and is really save or die and will have a higher DC to boot (like finger of Death, Wierd, or wail of the Banshee).

Uhhh, did you miss the part where I said I didn't like the SoD spells?

I think they should all be converted to damage myself. A 6th level SoD spell (IMO) should cap at about 30 dice, with 10 dice increments per spell level so that a 9th level SoD spell would cap at 60 dice.

Right now a maximized disintegrate can inflict 240 HPs at 20th level. You would have to be one hell of a buff fighter (a 24 Con with avg. HPs at 20th level), and unwounded, to survive failing a save against that.

A'koss.

edit opps, max.'d dis. is a 9th level spell - s'okay.

 

[Etan Moonstar]

(Sorry to briefly derail this thread, but I need to reply to this message vs. mirror image thing.)

In this instance, the SRD text differs from the PHB text only in the use of third-person ("the caster") vs. second-person ("you") and a specific example of how mirror images react to area effect spells. It's quicker for me to refer to the SRD when posting on my computer, but I went and compared with the PHB this time to make sure.

And the first paragraph in both sources states that: "The figments stay near you and disappear when struck."

The spell description later clarifies that any successful attack roll against a figment destroys it. This statement does not, however, exclude the possibility that a non-rolled targetted attack will also destroy the image (that would require the statement: "Only a successful attack roll against a figment destroys it").

Since a message spell does not strike its target--it only makes the target able to hear your whispered message--it does not destroy mirror images.

Points for creativity, Hypersmurf, but the rules on mirror image seem quite clear to this rules-lawyer of a DM, at least.

(We now return you--hopefully--to your regularly-scheduled thread on save vs. death. )

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Shard

The point being both spells get stoped by spells and items which one means more is campaign dependent.

I'll agree with this. Even the frequency of constructs and undead vary from campaign to campaign. IMC constructs are common and undead aren't

 

[Hypersmurf]

The spell description later clarifies that any successful attack roll against a figment destroys it. This statement does not, however, exclude the possibility that a non-rolled targetted attack will also destroy the image (that would require the statement: "Only a successful attack roll against a figment destroys it").

Except that most targetted spells - including Magic Missiles - target creatures, and a figment is not a creature.

Thus, you should not be able to strike a figment with a Magic Missile.

However, with a targetted spell, the caster is aware of its success or failure - if it has a saving throw, he knows if that target successfully saved, for example. He does not know this when he casts an area spell.

The FAQ entry does not suggest a targetted spell is required to "strike" a figment to destroy it. If you cast, for example, Hold Person, the figment neither saves, nor fails, nor resists the spell - and since the caster is aware of the effect of a targetted spell, he now has evidence that that figment is not real, and it disappears as per the FAQ text. The figment is not struck, but it is targetted.

In the case of a Message spell, you are simply gathering that evidence on one figment/creature per level.

-Hyp.