save or die 3.5

[nharwell]

I still don't see why it's so important to the mages viability that they should be able to kill any monster in one round. No other class can do it, so your example is pretty flimsy. You're saying in your example basically that a wizard should be able to take monsters who can crush him to a pulp in a single round on his own.

No other class can do it. Why should the wizard? [/B]

Actually,ALL the primary spellcasters can do that -- Clerics have Slay Living, Destruction, Harm, etc. Druids get Finger of Death. Sorcerors have access to the same spells as Wizards.

 

[Numion]

Actually,ALL the primary spellcasters can do that -- Clerics have Slay Living, Destruction, Harm, etc. Druids get Finger of Death. Sorcerors have access to the same spells as Wizards.

I wasn't thinking. I thought those were ruled too .. but they weren't. What is there then to bitch about? Use finger of death then.

 

[Numion]

It always bugged me that disintegrate required a roll to hit AND a saving throw (same as it bugged me for flaming bolts). Bring it into line with other spells I say! Hit or ST, not both!

Maybe it was a balancing factor? In general those who are easy to hit with ranged touch have high fort saves, and those who are difficult to hit have lousier saves.

Like: Dragon, Giant or Purple Worm = low touch AC, high Fort

Like: Wizard, Rogue or Vampire = high touch AC, low Fort.

Because disintegrate is a bitch to protect against, at least in the core rules.

 

[hong]

No kidding. Wizards should never do anything by themselves.

It gladdens the heart to see you have finally reached reached enlightenment, grasshopper.

Now go fetch my boots, and hurry up about it.

 

[hong]

And, by 18th-20th level, that's probably not unusual for a fighter--+6 Bracers of Health, and +2 to +4 in tomes depending upon starting con.

Our 18th level game is what could be called highly munched-out (stats that would cost about 40 in point-buy, oodles of magic, including stat tomes) and nobody has 240 hit points. The closest is probably the two tank fighters, who both have 210-220. Most of the rest are around 150 or so. Claiming that disintegrate is crap because it can't handle the absolute top end of the bell curve is stupid.

As for being unwounded, that may be a little more problematic but it's fairly typical for round 1 and that's also the time that disintegrate is most likely to be successful considering that, even at 18th level a lot of wizards won't have precise shot.

Is this, like, supposed to be, I dunno, something I'm supposed to care about, d00d?


Hong "sharing the LUV" Ooi

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I wasn't thinking. I thought those were ruled too .. but they weren't. What is there then to bitch about? Use finger of death then.

Not the person your quoting, but my bitch is that the others weren't changed too. I feel its inconsistent and I hate save or dies.

Oh and to answer your qusiton about why a wizard should be able to drop a foe instantly that can pulp him in one round. Well because every foe a wizard faces can pulp him in one round, no other class faces that.

I really think save or dies should go, but they also need to beef up the wizards defense a little so he doesn't live in a perpetual state of save or die.

 

[hong]

Not the person your quoting, but my bitch is that the others weren't changed too. I feel its inconsistent and I hate save or dies.

I'll probably change most of the death spells to deal Con damage. Losing 4d6 Con (say) should make most things sit up and take notice, even if it doesn't kill them outright.

Oh and to answer your qusiton about why a wizard should be able to drop a foe instantly that can pulp him in one round. Well because every foe a wizard faces can pulp him in one round, no other class faces that.

I really think save or dies should go, but they also need to beef up the wizards defense a little so he doesn't live in a perpetual state of save or die.

In the last umpteen sessions, we've faced quite a few high-level NPC wizards and sorcs. I can't recall any that have gone down in one round.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

then your not doing things right. With D4 hitpoints unless they have abnormally high cons they should drop in one round to just one of your players attacks.

 

[Numion]

Oh and to answer your qusiton about why a wizard should be able to drop a foe instantly that can pulp him in one round. Well because every foe a wizard faces can pulp him in one round, no other class faces that.

I dunno. A creature that can pulp a wizard in one round is seriously bad news for rogues too. Wizard has only one HP per level less than a rogue, but has superior defenses compared to them (like stoneskin, mirror image, displacement, flight.. etc, a load of spells really). Still, no one argues that the rogue should be able to drop creatures in one round.

I really think save or dies should go, but they also need to beef up the wizards defense a little so he doesn't live in a perpetual state of save or die.

I guess this varies from game to game. In ours the wizard usually had the most to fear from other mages, not from meleers. Flight, displacement, mirror images and all that ensured that the wizard was at most risk from area damaging spells.

 

[hong]

then your not doing things right. With D4 hitpoints unless they have abnormally high cons they should drop in one round to just one of your players attacks.

Displacement (major) cuts damage potential in half. Then add in:

Haste
Shield
Bracers of armour
Cat's grace
Endurance
Stoneskin
etc, etc, etc.

Now some of these are getting nerfed, but it should still be possible to get a wizard character with AC in the 40s and DR 10/-.