save or die 3.5

Originally posted by Celtavian:

I like some of Andy Collin's idea and he seems like a great guy, but he is not my favorite game designer. I was not impressed with the Epic Level Handbook which seemed disjointed and unfinished when I purchased it.

I miss the days when Monte Cook was at WotC. He seems to be the best of the game designers when it comes to game balance and creativity.
In Andy's defense, I believe any effort to create Epic Level rules that have to build on the existing 3e core rules (which were designed soley for 1-20th level play) is like swimming with lead boots on.

Oh, and here's a little blurb posted by Monte Cook on his MB regarding Save or Die spells in AU...

"I'm considering taking things that would be an appropriate instakill spell and making it a mega damage to one target spell.

So, instead of a finger of death like effect, it's a save or take 100 points of damage kind of thing. For some, that's still save or die. But for really tough things, that's save or be really hurt."

I guess even Monte isn't big on Save or Die... :D


A'koss.
 

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A'koss said:

In Andy's defense, I believe any effort to create Epic Level rules that have to build on the existing 3e core rules (which were designed soley for 1-20th level play) is like swimming with lead boots on.

Oh, and here's a little blurb posted by Monte Cook on his MB regarding Save or Die spells in AU...

"I'm considering taking things that would be an appropriate instakill spell and making it a mega damage to one target spell.

So, instead of a finger of death like effect, it's a save or take 100 points of damage kind of thing. For some, that's still save or die. But for really tough things, that's save or be really hurt."

I guess even Monte isn't big on Save or Die... :D


A'koss.

Well, I'll see what Monte does. I'll be disappointed if he turns death spells into hit point damage spells. A change like that lacks creativity IMO. I hope he finds a better solution or just keeps the spells risky as they should be.
 

I'm not fond of Save or Die spells either. They're such an anticlimax. Normally you just see one or both sides getting weaker during the combat, until one side is down. With Save or Die, it's either you rolled lucky and you're in full shape, or you rolled bad and it's over.

Which doesn't mean they should be taken out though. Making everything doing HP damage ain't the way to go (though I agree it's a good thing for Disintegrate, since it doesn't have anything to do with the Death spells). I DO think there has to be the correct defences against it, such as the Death Ward, that would work against ALL Save or Die spells. Save or Die spells without such protection would simply be cheesy.

Also, I think it would indeed be great if the Save or Die spells would not be instanteous, but would give a short while (1d3+1 rouds or so) to somehow overcome the spell (maybe with a spell specially designed for that?) would still make it a powerfull spell, but it would have a downside to balance it out.
 

Re

Personally, I don't mind if they change 'save or die' spells as long as they don't reduce them to glorified direct damage spells. That seriously lacks creativity and flavor.

I wouldn't mind a change so that you die in a few rounds without help or something to that effect. Hit point damage is boring as all get up. A death spell should have a unique flavor all its own that makes it scarier and different from other spells, especially energy damage spells.
 

There are three major problems that I see with the disintegrate nerf.

1. It is now conceptually incoherent.

The spell can disintegrate a 10' cube of solid stone, but can't destroy a human being, even on a failed save? That seems slightly bizarre. Hong rebutted this when I posted it on another thread by asserting that since high-level characters are 'special', they should survive- after all, Joe Commoner is going down to disintegrate. Fine. How about an elephant? With 104 hit points, it has a good chance of surviving having a 10' cube chunk taken out of it. How does that figure?

2. It is now mechanically inconsistent.

I could understand, but disagree, if they nerfed all save-or-dies. I note that the discussion has turned into the old 'save-or-die: yea or nay?' argument of multiple threads past. The point is that they nerfed disintegrate, but not slay living; nor finger of death; nor wail of the banshee. Very few of the anti-save-or-dies here favour any save-or-die spells: just look at the arguments being used.

As for Disintegrate being stronger because it bypasses constructs, undead and Death Ward- so what? Constructs are usually immune to all magic (unless you're going toe-to-toe with paragon homunculi on a regular basis). Undead, at high level, are reasonably likely to be incorporeal. Death Ward is far less common than spells which boost touch AC- given the duration, it is unlikely to see it against a non-prepared enemy. It is far less likely to be seen that high-level touch AC boosting spells and items: Rings of Deflection are reasonably standard by high levels, and everyone should have a Dex 13 or better. Cover and concealment are both far more effective against DIsintegrate than FoD.

3. It's weaker than direct-damage spells.

Chain Lightning, the archetypal level 6 damage spell, caps at 20d6. Assuming that Disintegrate is 20d6 + d6/level, it caps at 40d6 in non-epic play. CL has a save for 10d6, Disintegrate for 5d6. We shall assume saves are made 50/50 (WotC guidelines are that good saves are made 2/3; bad ones are made 1/3. Empowered^X Fox's Cunning is no longer an issue, Spell Focus is nerfed, and in any case good Fort saves are on balance more common than good Ref saves). Given these parameters, the average damage is 22.5d6 for Disintegrate; 15d6 for Chain Lightning. However, given that Disintegrate has make a touch attack, if the chance to miss is 35% or more (i.e. needing just a 8 or better to hit), then CL is superior- not counting concealment or cover. If, as some have asserted, Cloaks of Displacement are so common at high levels, this hurts Disintegrate immensely whilst leaving the DD spells totally untouched. Moreover, classes with poor touch ACs tend to have good Fort saves (dragons, fighters, clerics, giants) whilst those with poor Fort saves typically have good ACs (rogues, arcane casters, undead). Furthermore, CL affects secondary targets, and has a far greater range. On balance, you'd almost certainly be better off with CL than Disintegrate, unless you have an absurd ranged touch attack, min/maxed DCs or are fighting creatures with poor touch ACs *and* poor Fort saves (i.e. nearly no-one). Incidentally, CL is often regarded as slightly too weak at initial levels, compared with Maximised Fireball. And it's patently inferior to Empowered Flame Strike.

The new Disintegrate is conceptually incoherent and weak compared with either traditional save-or-dies and direct-damage spells. There are conditions under which one would take it: multiclassed rog/wiz for sneak attack potential, wizards with very very good ranged touch attacks, wizards with DCs in the stratosphere (much more difficult in 3.5e), when facing opponents with poor Fort and poor touch ACs (very few), or as a general utility spell. However, in most situtations, it's outclassed by other spells at a comparable level- or lower (Slay Living, 5th).
 

Al said:
There are three major problems that I see with the disintegrate nerf.

1. It is now conceptually incoherent.

The spell can disintegrate a 10' cube of solid stone, but can't destroy a human being, even on a failed save? That seems slightly bizarre. Hong rebutted this when I posted it on another thread by asserting that since high-level characters are 'special', they should survive- after all, Joe Commoner is going down to disintegrate. Fine. How about an elephant? With 104 hit points, it has a good chance of surviving having a 10' cube chunk taken out of it. How does that figure?

It survives it in exactly the same way it manages to survive a 20-foot-radius fireball, or a 5-foot-wide lightning bolt. It JUST IS THAT TOUGH. And from what I've seen, the spell only physically disintegrates you if you actually lose all your hit points to it -- otherwise, it's just abstract "ouch" damage, like if you get hit by an inflict wounds or harm spell.

2. It is now mechanically inconsistent.

I could understand, but disagree, if they nerfed all save-or-dies. I note that the discussion has turned into the old 'save-or-die: yea or nay?' argument of multiple threads past. The point is that they nerfed disintegrate, but not slay living; nor finger of death; nor wail of the banshee. Very few of the anti-save-or-dies here favour any save-or-die spells: just look at the arguments being used.

I don't know about you, but I'm changing all death spells (and some others) do deal Con damage instead of instadeath. 4d6 Con damage (say) should make most things sit up and take notice.

As for Disintegrate being stronger because it bypasses constructs, undead and Death Ward- so what? Constructs are usually immune to all magic (unless you're going toe-to-toe with paragon homunculi on a regular basis).

There's nothing special about the construct type that makes it immune to magic. Check the retriever for instance.

Undead, at high level, are reasonably likely to be incorporeal.

Poppycock. None of the iconic undead monsters -- vampires, liches, death knights -- are incorporeal.


3. It's weaker than direct-damage spells.

Chain Lightning, the archetypal level 6 damage spell, caps at 20d6. Assuming that Disintegrate is 20d6 + d6/level, it caps at 40d6 in non-epic play. CL has a save for 10d6, Disintegrate for 5d6. We shall assume saves are made 50/50 (WotC guidelines are that good saves are made 2/3; bad ones are made 1/3.

Is this more postmodern statistics I see before me?
 

Celtavian,

You have now reversed your position on several items. You have also made a few attempts to assign statements that YOU made to me.

So I'll just take your abandonment of your initial positions as an end to the debate.
 

Originally posted by Celtavian:

Well, I'll see what Monte does. I'll be disappointed if he turns death spells into hit point damage spells. A change like that lacks creativity IMO. I hope he finds a better solution or just keeps the spells risky as they should be.
Straight from Monte: "There are no (or practically no) save or die spells in AU."

Also note Monte's design philosophy on "one roll deciders" which is one I entirely agree with: "Let's face it: Combat is fun. Action is fun. Rules that prevent, or rather bypass, whole encounters with a single die roll, or mechanics that allow a character to simply end what would otherwise be an interesting encounter with some special ability, hurt the game."


Cheers,

A'koss.
 

Some clarifications on Save or Die effects in AU... I thought his first reply was a little cryptic ("practically none") and Monte just posted this reply...

"I wasn't trying to be cryptic. I was trying to be careful. There are no save or die spells in AU. However, there might very well be some corner case of a spell that you can use that if a save is failed, the victim ends up dying.

For example, in D&D, hold person isn't a save or die spell, but in effect, it really is.

(hold person isn't in AU for that reason, actually, but there are some higher level spells that have a similar effect that could lead to similar consequences)"


After reading Monte's design diaries I'm quite hyped over this book (we're on the same page almost across the board game philosophy-wise), maybe even moreso than the 3.5 books...


A'koss.
 

Interestinly enough, several of the arguements have glossed over a very simple statistical concern. A spell that can kill a creature with a probability of 50% or greater, that has 250 or greater hit points, is unparrelled at any level of arcane spellcasting (from a damage comparisons sake).

I agree that WOTC's handling was poor, and I'm disappointed that I'll have to immediately "reinstate" my 3rd Edition house rule on save or die...but so be it.

Here's the statistical arguement, which I think can be reasoned, for save or die:
1) direct damage spells should deal more damage on average than area damage spells.
2) some statistical comparisons of existing spells from the PH indicate this should be roughly 133% of comparable damage from AoE.
3) A save or die spell shouldn't be capable of dealing more than a "comparable" spell of it's level. Take 133% of the Maximum Damage by spell level for AoE spells, and you've roughly got your "hp caps" for save or die. If someone's current hp are that or higher the spell shouldn't insta-kill them on a failed save.
4) Most save or die spells have a reduced (worse than half damage) effect if a save is successful.
5) Therefore, if a target is above the current hp cap, and fails its save, the spell should still do a "significant" amount of damage. For example it may do 2x what an AOE damage spell of that level would deal (average damage = approximately the maximum for an AoE spell for that level.

This logic matches EXACTLY with a 40d6 Disintegrate. The math takes care of itself on the "HP CAP" when the spell will average 120 hp damage (the cap should otherwise be around 100hp). Dealing only 5d6 damage on a successful saving throw, to only a single target. They've bypassed the cap element, which is a more "fair" mechanic, and should have been applied to all of the insta-kill spells.

The biggest disadvanatage with this method...rolling all those dice!
 

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