Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[coyote6]

From The Outlaw Josey Wales, Clint gives us some more advice:

"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is."

Because sometimes you can't shoot all those men down before they shoot you, you have to consider the Missouri boat ride as an alternative.

& most importantly, "To hell with them fellas. Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms."

Of course, if the Outlaw Josey Wales were a D&D character, he'd probably not be 1st or 2nd level, so he'd have to empty his six shooter into the average monster before he'd have a chance at killing it . . .

Which is why I can't quite like d20 Modern; gimme GURPS or SW or SR or something like that, please. Let everyone be vulnerable to the gun (or sword, or spell).

Ironically, though, I'm not terribly fond of "save or die" spells in D&D for some reason.

OTOH, if you add in action/hero/whatever points -- a resource that every PC has & can use to mitigate the chance of D -- I'm much more accepting.

(Magic items and spells to mitigate SoD don't do it for me -- the one leads to the dread Christmas Tree effect, and the other just makes the spellcasters more awesome than the non-spellcasters.)

 

[Kingreaper]

The thing with Save or Dies to me is that every argument in favour of them seems like a situation where it should be "just die"
Which I'm fine with.

Save or die is where I have the problem. If I look at a medusa, and the medusa is meant to be full on greek-myth medusa: I die. I don't "Save or die" I die.

Save or die seems to be used as a way of having things that should be "just die"; and having them not be.
But making the save is pure chance. So, X% of the time they are still "just die".

If you want to use "just die" effects; use "just die" effects. If you don't want "just die" effects: why are you using "save-or-die"? When the die comes into effect, by random chance, you've got a "just die"

 

[El Mahdi]

... distance+cover+ready_to_run really is a good rule of thumb for any initial encounter (Heck, that's a good rule for social encounters, too, or even much of real life ). ...

I think that's the same strategy the French use...

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Not remotely. Hopefully the players know what game they are playing prior to coming to the table. I would say that a DM running a 4E game and slipping them in without telling the players is an ass, but not someone who advertises a BD&D or AD&D game then runs it per the rules.

You lost me there. That's exactly what I was getting at. A dm adding save or die effects into a game which by default does not have them, is going to find it a hard sell. Removing such effects from a game that does have them, however, probably won't piss off players nearly as much. The former can be seen as antagonistic, the latter, generous.

 

[Kingreaper]

You lost me there. That's exactly what I was getting at. A dm adding save or die effects into a game which by default does not have them, is going to find it a hard sell. Removing such effects from a game that does have them, however, probably won't piss off players nearly as much. The former can be seen as antagonistic, the latter, generous.

If players in general don't want save or die effects (as you're suggesting) wouldn't it make sense not to have save or die effects in a game that's trying to get a big audience?

 

[El Mahdi]

Light beer? No need to be insulting.

Metaphorical distance and cover is what I was referring to. Sorry, I realize that wasn't clear. Idle chit chat, white lies, guarding info, reading the other conversants, stuff like that. And if all else fails, no one is left standing when I, Theo R. Cwithin, don the white leisure suit and hit the disco dance floor!

That is soooo worth some XP...I just have to spread some around yet (Damn!)

 

[JRRNeiklot]

If players in general don't want save or die effects (as you're suggesting) wouldn't it make sense not to have save or die effects in a game that's trying to get a big audience?

Players don't want their characters to die either. Should that be removed? They don't particularly like getting hit, remove that as well?

 

[Kingreaper]

Players don't want their characters to die either. Should that be removed? They don't particularly like getting hit, remove that as well?

This isn't really analogous. There's a very big difference.

Most of my players like the possibility of character-death. They don't like the actual instance of it, but they like the possibility. It makes the survival so much more interesting.

All of my players (and going by your statements, most of your players too) don't like the idea of save-or-die. They don't like the possibility existing at all.

That's the difference. Get it now?

 

[radmod]

Because heroic stories are only told about the heroes who did heroic things...not those that died before they could do anything heroic, if you follow me.

You're looking at it backwards. I'd say that heroes are successful most of the time because those who are successful most of the time are heroes. Bad things do happen to heroes, but typically they are things the hero overcomes, not typically being turned to stone in a cave and never being seen again.

Again, stories are not games.

I know I'm way behind on this thread, but ...
According to reliable sources (PhDs in Classical History and Mythology + my mailman), a Hero is, and always was a Hero. In the Medusa example, if he hadn't gotten the shield, he would've won another way.

I always tell my Heroes, that they are Heroes (in the classical sense: larger than life). How powerful (respected, honored, etc.) of a Hero is dependent on them.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

All of my players (and going by your statements, most of your players too) don't like the idea of save-or-die. They don't like the possibility existing at all.

Actually all of my players like the fact that save or dies exist, though they might dislike losing a character to one.

That's the difference. Get it now?

No.