Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[BryonD]

So, what do you call what you play? I say that I'm playing in a D&D campaign on Tuesday mornings. I've been playing in various campaigns on Tuesday (and Thursday morning before that) for the past 10 years. While the rules have changed three times in that time, I still think that I'm playing D&D. Actually, the rules have changed more than 3 times considering the number of books and whatnot that has crossed the table - Unearthed Arcana, Scarred Lands with its own rules, Tome of Magic, Bo9S, now 4e. Meh, to me, it's always been D&D.

In every game, I've generated a six stat character based on 3-18 for base stats, given him a class, given him feats, given him skills and a race and equipment. That character has then gone on a series of adventures based around heroic fantasy tropes.

You said you played Moldvey, and yet you are picking classes AND races, and skill and feats. And, clearly, you ARE excluding GURPS, WHFRP, and HERO.

But, if I'm talking to the people I play with, we will specify 2E if talking about 2e and 4e if talking about 4e. We don't specify 3E out loud, but only because that is the default presumption.

If you don't perceive a difference worthy of note, then cool. We do.

It's old school gaming that you're really arguing against. The idea that events occur in the game world that are not pre-determined by the DM.

Didn't take long for you to get back around to telling *me* what *I'm* saying and getting it wrong.

From what you're saying, for any encounter to occur, there must be a logical narrative leading to that encounter. Yet, ambushing the party with a medusa most certainly can flow logically.

Wrong. I am saying you can't ignore the narrative as you did. And I'm saying that years and years of actually playing completely contradicts the conclusion you proclaimed as fact.

The problem is, if I do this, it's a pretty much guaranteed death sentence on one character. That's why I don't like it. The DM is forced by the mechanics to ensure that the party is ready for the encounter. If he doesn't, then the encounter is too lethal.

Again, I can only accept that you have experienced this. Therefore, my previously stated conclusion that your games are wildly different than mine.

The words "guaranteed", "forced", and "ensure" are way out of line for anything remotely resembling my games.

The one thing pretty much everyone has agreed on in this thread is ambushing PC's with SoD creatures is a bad idea. But, ambushing with SSSoD is mostly fine. In 4e, you've only got a 1 in 8 chance of actually failing completely and it's quite possible to improve those odds. That's much better, IMO, than a 100% death rate.

Again, "better" depends completely on the measure of fun you are trying to improve.

If you are playing a tactical combat battle game, then I fully concur.

If you are trying to simulate an encounter with Medusa which is consistent with myth, then SSSoD is the extreme opposite of better. Character death is still fun, while rubbing your face in the wrongness of the story just makes the character's survival anti-climatic and pointless. If I want to face Medusa and you use SSSoD, you have actively denied me the opportunity to do that thing I wanted to do.

 

[Fifth Element]

Remember not everyone is as interested in doctrinal purity as you are. In fact, some people, like me, think D&D is all but defined by a DIY spirit, large-scale tinkering, and kitbashing, even with cherished systems like Vancian casting and saving throws.

Well said. Ultimately I don't care if it's "D&D" or not, as long as I enjoy playing it.

 

[Fifth Element]

If you are trying to simulate an encounter with Medusa which is consistent with myth, then SSSoD is the extreme opposite of better.

This is absolutely true. The points to remember are:

1. Most people don't want to be consistent with myth when playing D&D, since games and stories are very different, and since typically D&D is not a game that simulates Greek myth.

2. Medusas in D&D have never been all that close to the Medusa of myth. There's more than just a petrifying gaze to Medusa.

 

[BryonD]

Well said. Ultimately I don't care if it's "D&D" or not, as long as I enjoy playing it.

I'm certainly not at all interested in doctrinal purity. If anything, I don't really care for early versions of D&D.

And, yes, I also don't care about what its called as long as I enjoy playing it.

But this point is just a bait and switch on the actual point that was originally made, so it doesn't contribute to the discussion.

 

[Fifth Element]

But that doesn't mean it always is the case. Suggesting that, if the game you enjoy has an element you dislike, the best course of action is to leave the game and find a new one - rather than find a solution around the disliked element or hope the game changes to address your concerns - seems counter to the sort of customization D&D has always been about.

To me, it doesn't even have anything to do with the customization that has typically been a part of D&D. Regardless of whether customization if part of D&D, it seems quite simple: if there's a game I like 90% of, and 10% that I don't like but can adapt to make it better for me, why would I go out looking for another game? Another game might do that 10% better, but maybe I only like 80% of the other 90% of the stuff.

There's no perfect game. If there are simple work-arounds to fix the things I don't like about a game, it's probably not worth the investment of time and money it would take to learn a new system.

 

[Fifth Element]

But this point is just a bait and switch on the actual point that was originally made, so it doesn't contribute to the discussion.

Simulating Greek myth has nothing to do with the OP either, so there you go.

 

[BryonD]

This is absolutely true. The points to remember are:

1. Most people don't want to be consistent with myth when playing D&D, since games and stories are very different, and since typically D&D is not a game that simulates Greek myth.

I certainly agree. That is a constant point I make, the games are VERY different and trying to convince someone that corner kicks is a good idea doesn't get anywhere when that other person is playing baseball.

That said, "Greek Myth" is a bit of red herring here because it only happens to apply to the specific example of Medusa in this discussion.

"Simulation" applies throughout the game and ties back to a vast array of sources. The foundations of 4E are not "simulationist, with the exception of Greek Myth".

2. Medusas in D&D have never been all that close to the Medusa of myth. There's more than just a petrifying gaze to Medusa.

There is more than just a petrifying gaze to Medusa in my D&D games.

Again, as I pointed out, the fact that Medusa is a race is a HUGE deviation from myth.

But I'm very comfortable that I make Medusa as right as I want, and the system I used supports that approach.

If you would like me to argue against having Medusa's skills, saves (er defenses), attacks, etc all mathematically founded on a common numeric monster level, I could do that as well.

Medusa and SoD in general are simply symptoms of the design approach. Whether one finds them symptoms of health or illness comes down to preference. But don't mistake them as isolated issues to be resolved or causes in their own right. It is just a topic at hand.

 

[BryonD]

Simulating Greek myth has nothing to do with the OP either, so there you go.

Yes it does. "Simulation" or not has a ton to do with whether or not SoD is fitting. The "Greek Myth" specification is irrelevant beyond simply being an example.

 

[Fifth Element]

There is more than just a petrifying gaze to Medusa in my D&D games.

Again, as I pointed out, the fact that Medusa is a race is a HUGE deviation from myth.

But I'm very comfortable that I make Medusa as right as I want, and the system I used supports that approach.

So I'm not sure what the issue is, then. Since medusas aren't much like Medusa, you're going to have to mod things to get what you want, regardless of the version of D&D you're running. And modding a medusa in 4E to a simple save-or-petrified is easy-peasy.

 

[Fifth Element]

Yes it does. "Simulation" or not has a ton to do with whether or not SoD is fitting. The "Greek Myth" specification is irrelevant beyond simply being an example.

I thought the original point was that SoD and level drain are needed to maintain fear in the players? Fear, not simulation.