Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[Zhaleskra]

I think some monsters not being able to kill your PC instantly takes away the scary factor. That said, what I don't like is the damage if you do save on Save or Dies as it is usually enough to kill your character outright anyway.

 

[FireLance]

You know, all this talk about save or die is making me just slightly nostalgic for the chance of (almost) instant death.

I'm toying with the idea that rolling a natural 1 on a saving throw made at the end of your turn (so that this does not affect bonus saves granted by allies) means you must make another, immediate saving throw. If you pass that saving throw, you gain no benefit, but if you fail, it is counted as a second failure. And if you roll a natural 1 on your second saving throw, you get to roll a third one, and so on.

With this house rule, it becomes theoretically possible (though still highly unlikely) for a character to fail three death saves in one round, or to be petrified by a medusa's gaze after just one turn.

Of course, me being the tenderhearted DM that I am, I will also ensure that some way to undo any semi-permanent conditions (e.g. petrification or death) arising from the failed saving throws will present itself. After I have derived sufficient enjoyment from the players' shocked (save ends); first failed save: flabbergasted (save ends); second failed save: consternated until a solution is found conditions, of course.

 

[Fifth Element]

In 3e, I think it is only reduction to -10 that kills. That means a coup de grace can easily take a couple or more hits.

Coup de grace forces a Fort save (DC 10+damage) so you don't need to just get to -10. There's also the massive damage save.

 

[Reynard]

Coup de grace forces a Fort save (DC 10+damage) so you don't need to just get to -10. There's also the massive damage save.

So what you're saying is a coup de grace is a SoD attack and therefore no good?

 

[Doug McCrae]

I think 3e has more instant death attacks than any previous edition. Coup de grace, massive damage (50hp+ forces save), massive *amounts* of damage such as charges and full attacks, monster grapples (not quite instant but there's no escape) and traditional SoDs. A sudden maximised empowered scorching ray is nothing to sneeze at, either.

 

[Hussar]

So what you're saying is a coup de grace is a SoD attack and therefore no good?

While I know this is tongue in cheek, I think there's been enough misunderstanding in this thread that I just want to be very clear.

It's not that all SoD is bad. My specific bitch is with area of effect SoD abilities that, because of the math of the game, leads to unacceptably (IMO anyway) high chances of character death.

Having a single target SoD ability isn't anywhere near so bad. And in this specific case, by the time you're in a position to be on the receiving end of SoD, likely a whole lot of things have gone wrong beforehand.

 

[Fifth Element]

While I know this is tongue in cheek, I think there's been enough misunderstanding in this thread that I just want to be very clear.

Indeed. If you're the target of a coup de grace, you had to get to that situation first. It's the culmination of something, not the beginning.

It's easy to take things too literally. When I say I don't like SoD, I mean I don't like it generally, not that it can never have a place in the game. If I have to choose between lots of SoD, or no SoD, I will choose no SoD. But I don't have to make that choice. I can choose a third option, SoD being very rare and used only in certain circumstances.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Indeed. If you're the target of a coup de grace, you had to get to that situation first. It's the culmination of something, not the beginning.

My argument about all SoD effects.

 

[MrMyth]

My argument about all SoD effects.

I think the steps that lead to Coup De Grace (having already been hit by enough overwhelming force to be unconscious, or targeted by a specific spell or effect that renders you helpless) are a much higher treshold, and much more based on your own rolls and actions, than entering an encounter without having learned in advance that you will be facing Save or Die effects (which is much more reliant on the DM).

 

[Hussar]

My argument about all SoD effects.

I figured that would come up.

Hrm, my character, in order to be targeted by a cdg attack, needs to be either:

a) rendered completely helpless magically
b) beaten unconcious through non-lethal damage
c) asleep

Now, is it good encounter design to have an invisible thief sneak into the character's room, without any warning, and cdg him in his sleep?

Because that's what putting a medusa on a random encounter table basically works out to.

Now, I know you can manipulate the situation so that the player always has the ability to know that the SoD encounter is coming and can react accordingly, but, to me, that's too heavy handed. It's pretty obvious what's going on when every stranger I meet suddenly goes out of his way to mention that there is a specific kind of creature in that area. Never mind the fifteen other kinds of creatures there. They might or might not get mentioned. But every SoD creature will always be known.

Me, I'd rather just lower the lethality and then treat SoD creatures just like any other creature. Much less work for me as a DM, much better encounter design, and a much better designed monster that is no longer a one trick pony.

Makes me perfectly happy.