Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[Hussar]

Shrug. Big shrug.

I've never thought of the original Medusa of myth as being particularly stupid. But everyone knew where she was. That is part of the myth itself.

I really think you are failing to grasp that concept. Which is FINE, if you don't want to play that way. But, trust us, there is a preference which is different than yours.

I can most certainly imagine of a medusa example in which much care is taken to disguise her presence. And the level appropriateness of this scenario is probably higher. But, the hammer idea just seems to be going around your elbow to get to your ear. To even bring such up just re-SCREAMS "we play radically different games with fundamentally different goals, values, and presumptions."

And yet again, that is the true conclusion.

No, I get what's being said.

What I reject is that EVERY SoD creature MUST be signposted. That EVERY creature MUST leave a footprint, despite the fact that many of these creatures are intelligent.

A basilisk leaves signs? Sure, no problem. It's an animal, and animals leave trails. A medusa though? A medusa is intelligent. Wouldn't a medusa be smart enough to cover her tracks? At least sometimes?

What you don't get is the idea that every monster has exactly one location, that is well known to every person nearby, breaks suspension of disbelief for some players. That signposting every single creature is not believable for some players.

That you find it believable is fine. That's groovy. But, not everyone wants to play the way you play. That doesn't make anyone right or wrong. Just different playstyles.

To me, I'd rather reduce the lethality of the encounter - not remove lethality mind you, just reduce - than completely break suspension of disbelief by signposting YET AGAIN, another medusa by having statuary lying about.

If I was a totally new player? Probably wouldn't faze me. I'd think it was cool. After the fifteenth medusa encounter where there are statues lying about? Bit anti-climactic.

 

[Hussar]

Oh, and by the way, since we're talking about misunderstandings - BryonD, in what version of the Perseus myth does "everyone knew where she was"? In any reading I've done, Perseus has no idea where the Gorgons are and has to wander around trying to find them. It isn't until he's told by the gods where the Gorgon's are, that he can find them.

So much for everyone knowing where to find the Gorgons.

Guess my way of playing is closer to mythology than you would like.

 

[Psion]

Hmmm.

I may dwell on this some more, but more or less, yeah. I think every SoD creature should be signposted in some sense. Elsewise, what I see as the cheif advantage that is my reason for keeping SoD around for is lost.

Note here by saying "signposted", I'm including "rumored" and "redshirted", which leaves me plenty of room for my disbeleif suspenders.

 

[Reynard]

Hmmm.

I may dwell on this some more, but more or less, yeah. I think every SoD creature should be signposted in some sense. Elsewise, what I see as the cheif advantage that is my reason for keeping SoD around for is lost.

Note here by saying "signposted", I'm including "rumored" and "redshirted", which leaves me plenty of room for my disbeleif suspenders.

I disagree. There's certainly some value to "signposted" SoD creatures -- but it is the same value as signposted creatures of any sort that leave a large "footprint" on the world -- dragons, powerful undead and the like. It's fun to see how PCs decide to tackle a known (or at least assumed) presence. Do they go to the Medusa's lair, knowing it is a solid XP reward and likely full of good treasure, or do they avoid it.

But there's all value in "Oh crap" moments, when an encounter -- random or not -- is sudden and there it is, and SoD creature. Holy crap, you turned a corner and there's a cockatrice (or even ghouls for low level PCs -- theyu essentially qualify). What now? Run? Fight? Go nova and pray? Turtle up.

Here's the thing, though: I think it is reasonable to ask that the GM of such a campaign be explicit with his players. "SoD monsters do exists in this world, and you may well encounter them in adventures or even on a wandering monster chart." If the players agree to play that game, then they agree to deal with SoDs and being ""prepared" for them is a foregone conclusion.

 

[Starman]

But there's all value in "Oh crap" moments, when an encounter -- random or not -- is sudden and there it is, and SoD creature. Holy crap, you turned a corner and there's a cockatrice (or even ghouls for low level PCs -- theyu essentially qualify). What now? Run? Fight? Go nova and pray? Turtle up.

Well it seems there's been enough "signposting" or "rumoring" for the characters to know that they just ran into a cockatrice. Perhaps they weren't expecting it, but they know what it is in your scenario and can act accordingly (fight, flee, panic, etc.)

 

[Hussar]

I totally agree Reynard.

My question though is, if you decide to drop in a SoD creature without any PC prep, what lethality level are you comfortable with? By the book, it could be as high as nearly 100% that a single PC will be killed in the encounter. Is that just the way the cookie crumbles or would you want to do something to ameliorate that percentage?

 

[Blair Goatsblood]

Zeus gets mad and makes the moon so ugly it turns viewers to stone.

...I am in awe with how awesome that is!

 

[Reynard]

I totally agree Reynard.

My question though is, if you decide to drop in a SoD creature without any PC prep, what lethality level are you comfortable with? By the book, it could be as high as nearly 100% that a single PC will be killed in the encounter. Is that just the way the cookie crumbles or would you want to do something to ameliorate that percentage?

I tend to be a let the dice fall where they may type, but I also tend to "oversell" the danger. That is to say, I use lots of vivid and terrifying description to get the players to believe death is imminent when really it's not that likely. But, if their luck runs out, them's the breaks.

 

[Reynard]

Well it seems there's been enough "signposting" or "rumoring" for the characters to know that they just ran into a cockatrice. Perhaps they weren't expecting it, but they know what it is in your scenario and can act accordingly (fight, flee, panic, etc.)

Generally speaking I play with people who have been at it for a long time. Trying to hide the fact that it's a cockatrice or have them pretend not to know it's a cockatrice doesn't add to anyone's fun.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Huh??

I've got to do what, then? Use simulation algorithms to determine the position and vector of Slimy the Worm at every moment?

Not happening! I'll go for the probabilistic approach, concerned only with the question that really matters: whether Slimy is (or is probably soon to be) where the players can perceive it. If some "modern" gamer has a problem with that, then he can look elsewhere for his game.

Depends what you mean by Slimy the Worm. Tiamat does not belong on a normal wandering monster table - although she's on some of the older school ones. The Gorgon Medusa was a setting level monster who could be made into an artifact one of the Gods wanted so she could significantly increase her power. The King doesn't belong on a random monster table (Elvis on the other hand might be entertaining to put on one in the right sort of game...) They are all named setting level monsters who don't just show up at random - if I'm involving any of them, that's the motivation for the adventure.

For plenty of the rest of us, encounter tables have worked plenty fine for a mighty long time.

And I'm going to be using ones (chosen by terrain type) in my sandbox 4e campaign. If the PCs are very unlucky I'll roll the adult dragon. (Hint: run or hide until they've gained about a dozen levels). That doesn't mean I'm going to put medusas or even catoblepas on it unless they are stupid enough to wander straight into catoblepas territory (hint: it makes Defiler territory look lush) - and in that case it's not a wandering monster table so much as chance catoplepas turns up table in much the same way I'd be using a chance dragon was home roll if they wanted to find its lair.