Save or die!

[Xarlen]

If that's so, then why do we have Random Encounter tables? You could be killed by a roving beast.

And, I gotta ask, what is the other party members doing? A CtG usually takes a little while to execute. If someone was moving within throat slitting range of my Held buddy, I'd Bull rush the sucker. I'd Hold *him*. I'd *Gasp* Disintegrate him.

Save or Die is just like being Sneak Attacked by an assassin, Getting Snatched/Breathed on/Dropped in the surprise/first round of combat. Not as fun, but it's part of the game.

Otherwise, I gotta ask, what do your fighter types got to fear during the Climactic fight with the Big Bad Wizard they've been hunting? A fireball? An MM? Or are they going to be nervous because they have a low Will save?

And, geeze, if they have a serious problem with them, Play an Elf, who recieves +2 vs Enchantment spells, with a high Wisdom. A Dwarf who gets +2 vs. Magical effects.

 

[bensei]

I'd just say:
If you want to make save or die spells have less impact, let your group fight lots of lesser foe instead of one big foe. This will make your battles much more climatic.
As you are the DM, you can control this issue.

 

[radferth]

If you don't like the save or screwed mechanic, you can always replace it with ability damage or "virtual" hp damage like death touch from the death domain. Of course, that could be a lot of work, and would be a topic for the house rules form.

 

[trimeulose]

So, you're telling me that the dragon didn't have the reach ability to attack the cleric with an attack of opportunity. Moreover, he could grapple with his mouth, and use his breath weapon in subsequent rounds to toast everything in sight especially the cleric that idenified himself as a spell caster. He in now in the fiery maw of a dragon unable to cast spells with any somatic components, and he takes damage from the breath weapon with no save.

Now we've gone from save vs die dragon to just.... die cleric!

 

[Al]

I like 'Save or Die' type spells, because they add spice to the game.

The best combat I've ever been involved in (as a PC) was with a cockatrice. My illusionistess (?) vaguely remembered that cockatrices were dangerous for some reason or another, and told the party fighter that he should kill it quickly. Then it pecked him, and he failed his save. Oops...

With the party muscle mainly gone, we struggled through to avoid a TPK. Still, it was tense, and, for once, after a myriad of dull hack-hack type combats, it adds real tension...and excitement. Sure, in the end, despite having Shield and Mirror Image up, I got unlucky and was turned to stone. But I didn't mind...I knew what I was up against, and it got my adrenaline going (OOC). And the look of relief on the other PC's face when the DM said it collapsed was incredible.

Really, save-or-die is what make casters dangerous at high levels. There should be a sense of awe when dealing with high-level casters. Just tossing out dozens of fireballs isn't the same. And do bear in mind that fighters can just as easily annihilate wizards, especially with the likes of Power Critical, Spirited Charge etc. If it really bothers you, fix the dice or rule-0. I find it adds to the fun.

 

[Glyfair]

In the above example, as a DM, if you feel the dragon failing its Save is totally anticlimatic, you could always, well...fudge the roll!

I totally disagree with this. I will fudge rolls at times for dramatic effect. However, if you fudge a save or die save in a climatic battle, then you better tell your players that in advance. Otherwise, they are just wasting one of their few high level spells because you won't let it succeed.

Also, make sure if you change the "save or die" spells (by dropping or altering them) that you carefully consider how this will alter the balance of the classes. That's the reason why I've decided to keep Harm as is. Almost all of the "modifications" I've seen to it have made it less powerful than other spells of equal or lower level (for example, Slay Living).

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Ace]

Also, if you throw out Save or Die spells, then spellcasters have to resort to even more annoying tactics: Fear.

And, of course, then you have the Flying, Improved Invisible, Hasted wizard, just so he can friggin' survive.

Isn't that combo pretty normal. I asasumed all mages pretty much went with Fly. Improved Invis, Haste and blasting spells (or summons) as a matter of course

 

[ogre]

This happend in a climatic battle in my Watchers Keep homebrew, where the party of 4-13th levels were fighting two CR16 minotaurs. The wizard took out the Barbarian in the 1st round with a save or die, the battle quickly ended.
anyway,...
I run most "save or you die or you are basically taken out of the entire combat, so sit there and have no fun while everyone else is playing" spells, I grant a new save every round or so (depending, usually on how the PC is roleplayed or clever ideas they may try heh) This makes the game more fun for 'us' though i realize it's not for everyone.
I was thinking after reading this thread, that the save or die, 'when the baddie fails his save before the battle really begins' spell affects could be held off until right before any PC dies, with instead of the PC dieing, at that moment the PC kills the baddie (that already failed his save and should be dead) in a climatic ending.

 

[Xarlen]

How about...

Delay Death
You have mastered the workings of your body to resist the Pull of Death.
Prerequisits: Base fort: +10, Wis 14+, Toughness
Benefit: When hit with a situation of Death from Massive Trauma, or fail a saving throw that means Death, you stay alive up to 1d4 rounds, plus your con modifier.
Normal: Without this feat, you're dead.

 

[ogre]

Xarlen,

yeah, wouldn't boromyr (sp?) have this feat? ;-)