Save or die!

[Xarlen]

For the record, I am not an advocator of Save or Die spells, and throw them whenever possible, and wield Staves of Disintegration at my party.

Infact, I've had 1 villain fall to a well done Phantasmal Killer (To note, the Illusionist's one and only, three levels ago). It really did suck because he fell in the 2nd or 3rd round of combat, right before he was about to unload some Necromantic Goodies down on them (I loved that guy, he was a COOl, cheerful, chipper necromancer). It sucked, yeah.

I am infact hesitant To use them, in fear of killing the characters.

I am simply avocating that, to keep Mages still Dangerous, against fighter types, that they NEED those save or dies. Sleep, Color Spray, Hold person, these keep Mages *alive* at lower levels, because otherwise they are Dead, in many cases. Unless they throw up a shield, mage armor, Invisibilty, and hide, they need to pull their weight, or the party doesn't have any use for them. In higher levels, yes, a spellcaster can Lay The Smack, but unless he's a cleric, those Save or Dies make his day, because Figher types of equal level have HPs into the hundreds. And, sure, he can throw down a 15d6 cone of cold, but if it's saved or not, it's not going to stop many things in their tracks.

I like the Dramatic template; that's cool. And for a Cinematic effect, that would be awesome to apply to characters, too, in certain cases. Being slowly transformed into stone, round by round, instead of one instant Boop (Ergo the dex thingie), and so oh. Perhaps those effects could be implimented IF the person fails their save, but not direly? For instance, for every 5 they miss the DC by, the effects are worse.

I Just don't think that the spellcaster's Bread and Butter, their effectiveness, needs to be ripped out. Otherwise, they sit back, pump up the party with buffs, and then do nothing but toss the token MM out. I was basicly forced to do this, and I don't like it.

 

[jodyjohnson]

More on Dramatic Opponent template

Disclaimer: Not for the grim 'n gritty style of play - heroic fantasy here.

To elaborate a little more on the Dramatic Opponent template, I think something like this should apply to player characters as well. Probably apply it to important NPCs too. A mark of heroism or villany.

As a DM I really want both sides to have access to the Save or Die spells. They speed up non-dramatic combats so well and serve a powerful dramatic purpose when used on 'Red Shirts', spectators, minions and cohorts. Sure Circe can polymorph Odyseus' crew but she doesn't do it to him. Disintegrate, hold, polymorph, death effect, and feeblemind all you want - just don't do it in the first round versus either the PCs or the big baddies. IF they can't find a way out after getting nailed once, serves them right when they get nailed again. Tension and drama. The drama of "Make a save" followed by "Your Dead" is a little too short-lived for me.

In some ways this is a toned down version of the 'Chosen of Mystra' template tacked on in FR to power-up the important NPC's.

 

[Xarlen]

And, the Slow Death thing does have it's nice perks. Like they lose 2 dex/con/str every round, and when it reaches 0, they die. Gives them some wriggle room, or time to get a fixing spell slapped on. Or take out the other guy.

 

[Luddite]

One way of limiting the anticlimatic effect of "Save or Die" spells is to steal from Kaptin_Kantrip's favorite game (or one of them) Spycraft. The Action Die system gives both the players and the DM a fixed number of bonus die that can be used in these situations.

So if you are worried that your Big Bad Villan needs to make this save so he can open his Unholy Can of Demonic Whoop-ass (economy sized), then you spend one, or more, of your die to do so. Of course the players then can spend one of their dice to limit or negate the effect of his Unholy Can of Demonic Whoop-ass (economy sized)

This does at least add some tension to the room. At least a few more diced are rolled before the combat is over.

The idea is to give both players and DMs a little bit of leyway so they don't get taken out by one lucky roll. (Two lucky rolls would be needed)

-The Luddite

 

[Breakstone]

Bah, one problem is the thought that short battle equals anticlamatic. A save or die spell can be plenty clamatic, as seen here:

DM: The black dragon roars, acidic spittle spraying out from a maw full of sword-sharp teeth. "You have hunted me for nearly four years, adventureres," he bellows, echoed voice reaching you from all sides. "Now that you've found me, what are you going to do?"

Cleric: I step forward, and say "Message from God: Bite me!" I then cast (insert save or die spell here).

DM (rolling a 1): The dragon lets out a laugh, and bites down at you, horrid jaws rushing towards you like an avalanche of death.
But your god is with you, and you feel his holy energies bursting forth from your body. A glow emenates from you, taking the form of your god. The dragon's head snaps back as if hit with a mallet. Surprised, he hisses "What the abyss?" but is shut up as the holy glow envelopes him.

He takes a swing with his claw, but is held back by a spectral hand. He sprays acid, but only a drop escapes his mouth before his jaw is crushed with devine strength. His wings are torn and his midnight hide painted red with his own bubbling blood. You hold your holy symbol forth, and a beam of light shoots from it, penetrating the dragon in the gut. He folds over, skin and muscle evaporating from his bones. When he hits the ground, only his skeleton remains. The holy light slowly fades from the cavern. The black dragon is dead.

Players: ...woah...



And all that in one round.

 

[Luddite]

Tsunami has a point. The level of antifclimatic-ness is independent of the number of dice rolled, or how long the combat lasts.

What is a problem is when a DM, or Player, is taken unprepared with a "Save or Die" spell. In the case you presented, the DM was quick enough to spice up the effects of the spell, so as to add Dramatic Tension to the event. But that solution is not for all styles of play.

For some, Dramatic Tension is dependent on rolling dice and out manuevoring the other side. Having Luck over shadow Strategy fails to build up enough Dramatic Tension, in this case, to allow for the desired Cathartic experience planed by the DM.

-The Luddite

 

[reapersaurus]

Tsunami - amend your 'combat' scene to be:

Players: that ing sucked.
Fighter-guy: Yeah! I was all pumped up to go mano-a-clawo with that draco-bitch, and be able to use all my feats i've taken partially for this very battle, and i might as well have been window dressing for the mage-types!

 

[jodyjohnson]

I agree with Reaper on that one. You still have a table full (minus one) of buffed to the gills players thinking, "I would have been nice to get a shot in".

Save or die spells can be dramatically described.

I'll hold to my erroneous assumption that fights ending in the first round are not very exciting to me and my group.

 

[ogre]

This reminds me of Dangerous Journeys, the game EGG made back in the early 90's. It had a factor that all heros and villians had. It was called Joss, and you would spend Joss points to save yer butt when it was needed. You only gained them back very very slowly, so they were valuable, but a perfect fix for this situation I'd think.
Certain situations would cost more joss, so if you were going to die from a save or die spell, perhaps it would cost 2 points. A 'catch' from a 100' fall may only cost 1. Escaping while surrounded by 25 drow could cost 3 etc.
This could legitimize some of the ideas posted here.
I really like the attribute damage though, especially for turning to stone etc. The movie WIllow has a scene in it sorta like that. heh

 

[Breakstone]

Tsunami - amend your 'combat' scene to be:

Players: that ing sucked.
Fighter-guy: Yeah! I was all pumped up to go mano-a-clawo with that draco-bitch, and be able to use all my feats i've taken partially for this very battle, and i might as well have been window dressing for the mage-types!

Oh, bah humbug.