Save or die!

[Furn_Darkside]

Also, I'm assuming the ability damage expires after the spell duration. Yes? No? Is this a bookkeeping nightmare?

I have been tossing the idea around in my head- and IF I decided to propose this to my group- it will be in somewhat the following form:

Many of the save vs. die spells will become permanent ability damage: if the damage drops that stat to a 0, then the target dies as per the spell.

I am considering:
1)The amount of damage is determined by how much they fail the save. They will lose one point a round until the full amount of damage has been absorbed.

2)Have the damage happen 1 pnt per 1 second.

3)Have the damage happen all at once.

4)Do it differently per spell.

Which stat- I will need to make a list and tie it to a spell. A bit of book-keeping, but once done.. that part will be over.

FD

 

[Nine Hands]

One way of limiting the anticlimatic effect of "Save or Die" spells is to steal from Kaptin_Kantrip's favorite game (or one of them) Spycraft. The Action Die system gives both the players and the DM a fixed number of bonus die that can be used in these situations.

So if you are worried that your Big Bad Villan needs to make this save so he can open his Unholy Can of Demonic Whoop-ass (economy sized), then you spend one, or more, of your die to do so. Of course the players then can spend one of their dice to limit or negate the effect of his Unholy Can of Demonic Whoop-ass (economy sized)

-The Luddite

I currently use Action Dice in my higher level D&D game. Of course I tweaked some of the ways they work, but overall, I am pleased with them.

Because the game has an epic scale, I have skills, saves, and of course attack rolls automatically succeed on a 20 and automatically fail on a 1. During our playtest of the ELH we used the open ended rolling method and I noticed that if you rolled a 20 and rerolled, you most likely succeeded anyway. This was done to both cut down die rolling and keep some of that epic flavor.

You can spend an action die to do many things: Add to any roll (each class gets a certain type of roll that they get double dice to roll on), add to your Defense in for a round, etc. Criticals are handled normally for D&D but you can spend an action die to avoid confirming the critical threat. Also, players can suggest something to me, from having an item handy, to anything else they can think of. If it is within reason, I charge them a couple of action dice and move on with the plot.

The one thing I have learned with Action Dice (both in Spycraft and D&D) is that you MUST spend them as a GM/GC, if not, the party rolls over most encounters. Also you need to give them out to the players (reward the actions you like, do not reward the actions you dislike). I may mention that I will allow a reroll of a roll for 2 action dice. That sounds like a good idea

 

[Al]

don't like them myself. We had one guy in our Arteeteetee'o'ee'ee campaign make an 8th level archer who copped a disintegrate spell halfway through his first session. It was silly. There should be more to losing a character than fluffing one die roll.

Characters get killed. At low-levels, you don't even need to fluff the roll: a single greataxe crit can kill you, with no input. Save-or-die merely keeps the casualty rates up to those of low-levels, not make them more deadly (and at the kind of level save-or-dies appear, you have access to Raise Dead or equivalent, so it isn't necessarily losing a character).

I somehow suspect that the fighter's player would have a rather different opinion of that battle....

Funnily enough, he didn't.

This just points to the general problem that in D&D, offense outpaces defense at high levels (see related thread on SKR's ranting). Save-or-die effects are the most egregious manifestation of this problem. However, this indicates to me that the best solution is to rein in offense in general, not to ignore save-or-die effects.

Perhaps your players don't have sufficient defenses. Death Ward short-circuits most instakills as is available at a relatively lower level. 'Pseudo-instakills', such as polymorph and hold, can be removed with Break Enchantment, Dispel Magic or similar. And at high levels, raising the dead becomes a viable option. If you're killed at level 1, roll up a new character. If you're killed at level 10, wait for the party cleric to restore you to life.

As for 'climaticism', see tsunami. Drama comes from description, not mechanics. A fight can be equally anticlimactic if you have a poor DM even if hit-point damage is used alone.

I agree with Reaper on that one. You still have a table full (minus one) of buffed to the gills players thinking, "I would have been nice to get a shot in".

Perhaps a fair point. I'll concede this one, but then it's swings-and-roundabouts. The wizards will often be upstaged by fighters if different combats agains particular foes (with draconic SR and saves, dragons are usually pretty hard to take down with instakill).

As for the Dramatic Opponent Template, I can't see the use. For one, it puts the players on the back foot (unless you give all of them this template as well). Sure, it adds to the tension, but like fudging (which I will sometimes admit to doing) it pre-empts the whole point of save-or-dies. You don't blow save-or-dies on the minions, but save them for the BBEG. If he's immune to them, what's the point?

Similarly, staggered reduction doesn't help save-or-die. The point is that you kill people there and then: if you stagger damage, they have a chance to get back through healing magic. Raise Dead et al. does not have a realistic casting time for combat due to this very reason.

Spellcasters are meant to be powerful. At the low-levels, they are usually playing second fiddle to the fighters. High-levels are getting what they've been due. It may be a structural imbalance, but I regard save-or-dies are adding to the tension, making combat dangerous (which it should be) and giving spellcasters a decent chance when competing with the high-level fighting types. Dramatic Opponents, staggered death and simply deleting save-or-die may sound good on paper, but at the end of the day I can see combat becoming much more lame and turning into a hit-point bashing fest.

 

[Xarlen]

Right ON Al!

Like it's pointed out, Pseduo-Save or Die are not immediately deadly. For instance, Flesh to Stone. You're not *DEAD* untli you are broken. At any point, before you are shattered, can you be turned Back into flesh.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Al: "You don't blow save-or-dies on the minions, but save them for the BBEG. If he's immune to them, what's the point?"

This is where we'll differ. I want them to use "save or dies" on minions. I want the enemy to use the "save or dies" on the underlings and have a consistent in-game reason to do so. As you say, currently the logical use of these spells is against the toughest opponents and the PCs.

The whole immunity thing was exactly what SKR was talking about. The way they are making high level opponents is to just start slapping immunities on everything. The reductions were a middle ground. Sure exhausted is better than dead but it still effects the combat. Some of these lesser effects are nothing to laugh at. Slow isn't fun for Fighters, and dazed is nearly as bad as stunned.

At this point I'm looking for options for high level challenges that aren't to just start tossing around immunities, SR, DR, and insane hit points just to have a combat last past the first 6 seconds. Maybe the hero/villain template isn't it. Maybe the ability damage thing is, or just removing them altogether. It's a mechanics issue and dressing it up in pretty clothes doesn't solve it for me.

Maybe I'm taking a little too much inspiration from the movies. If first round kills are so dramatic why do most action movies tend to end with 10 minute slug fests. Wouldn't it be easier if every action movie ended with an unseen sniper dropping the BBEG with a single bullet from 1000 meters away? Or better yet with a cruise missile from 200 miles away.

Maybe I'm a lame DM but if a player's dramatic line was "Eat me!" I'd fudge that '1' to a success all night long.

 

[Al]

This is where we'll differ. I want them to use "save or dies" on minions. I want the enemy to use the "save or dies" on the underlings and have a consistent in-game reason to do so. As you say, currently the logical use of these spells is against the toughest opponents and the PCs

Well, the fact is that the won't. The point of 'save or dies' is that they are designed for big bad villains. Against, the lowly minions, you are much better off simply using the blast spells. Comparing a Finger of Death against an Empowered Cone of Cold or Prismatic Spray, against lots of minions you are probably better off with the latter two; against the big boss you'll want the former.

The way they are making high level opponents is to just start slapping immunities on everything. The reductions were a middle ground. Sure exhausted is better than dead but it still effects the combat

Well, this is far skewed towards the immune side of things. Exhausted can be easily removed with magic and its effects are only slightly more than a nuisance to many bosses (to an arcane spellcaster, it is of little impact at all). Dead cannot be easily removed with magic (in a battle) and tends to have a more decisive effect.

At this point I'm looking for options for high level challenges that aren't to just start tossing around immunities, SR, DR, and insane hit points just to have a combat last past the first 6 seconds. Maybe the hero/villain template isn't it. Maybe the ability damage thing is, or just removing them altogether. It's a mechanics issue and dressing it up in pretty clothes doesn't solve it for me.

Defensive spells work a treat. The climax to my campaign, level 20 all round, save-or-die as staple fare, lasted well over a dozen rounds. Antimagic Shells, Death Wards, Mind Blanks, etc. all work well against save-or-dies or pseudo-save-or-dies.

Maybe I'm taking a little too much inspiration from the movies. If first round kills are so dramatic why do most action movies tend to end with 10 minute slug fests. Wouldn't it be easier if every action movie ended with an unseen sniper dropping the BBEG with a single bullet from 1000 meters away? Or better yet with a cruise missile from 200 miles away.

Perhaps. But then movie makers don't have to worry about the 'game' balance. They don't worry about the good guys getting slaughtered, and they can 'fudge' both dice as much as they want. Basing game rules off a film is often a bad idea.

The irony is that this doesn't solve the problem either. Sure, you can ban save-or-die. But a Power Critical from a mercurial greatsword is going to save your evil wizard in two equal halves. A Rapid Shot from your Order of Bow Initiate will have a similar effect; as will a few daggers in the back from the invisible rogue. If you need to address this issue, you need to tone down the whole deadliness of combat, and herein lies the problem. Filmmakers can have the mugs die and the BBEGs hold out: game designers are hard-pushed. If you make the PCs less effective, they are less effective across the board, and simply 'cheating' to boost the boss doesn't seem fair or right. I learnt some time ago that whilst films often allowed for good inspiration, they should not be used as ideals.

PS

Maybe I'm a lame DM but if a player's dramatic line was "Eat me!" I'd fudge that '1' to a success all night long.

(I couldn't agree more. Why do we spend ages preparing dramatic speeches and the PCs come out with asinine comments like 'Eat me!', 'Die!' and 'Roll initiative, punk'?)

 

[jodyjohnson]

In the fudging department there is also the "Three deaths and you're out" variant p.111 in the ELH. It's another way to save PCs from instant death spells.

"Epic luck" is also there.

Back to the discussion:
Sure there are spells to protect against these things. In our first 3e campaign we did them all. Spreadsheets with protections for every spell or effect we could think of. We were dropping 20-30k in scrolls, wands, staffs per foray. And most fights ended in draws after round after round of: "Resisted, immune, resisted, saved, immune". The fighter types were doing damage but heal/mass heal goes a long way towards erasing that damage. At the end we felt totally worthless and un-heroic since all our cool abilities were nullified. We just quit and started over.

 

[hong]

Characters get killed. At low-levels, you don't even need to fluff the roll: a single greataxe crit can kill you, with no input. Save-or-die merely keeps the casualty rates up to those of low-levels, not make them more deadly (and at the kind of level save-or-dies appear, you have access to Raise Dead or equivalent, so it isn't necessarily losing a character).

Consider again that if you didn't keep losing characters, you wouldn't _need_ raise dead and other such crutches.

Perhaps your players don't have sufficient defenses. Death Ward short-circuits most instakills as is available at a relatively lower level. 'Pseudo-instakills', such as polymorph and hold, can be removed with Break Enchantment, Dispel Magic or similar.

Consider again that if there weren't all these attacks, you wouldn't _need_ defenses like death ward, dimension door, teleport, and so on.

And at high levels, raising the dead becomes a viable option. If you're killed at level 1, roll up a new character. If you're killed at level 10, wait for the party cleric to restore you to life.

Screw raise dead.

As for 'climaticism', see tsunami. Drama comes from description, not mechanics. A fight can be equally anticlimactic if you have a poor DM even if hit-point damage is used alone.

Nonsense.

Similarly, staggered reduction doesn't help save-or-die. The point is that you kill people there and then: if you stagger damage, they have a chance to get back through healing magic. Raise Dead et al. does not have a realistic casting time for combat due to this very reason.

There's nothing wrong with healing magic. Every heal spell is another spell slot gone on something that might have been a blast or buff spell, or another item charge used up. It comes down to using up the party resources, as always.

Spellcasters are meant to be powerful. At the low-levels, they are usually playing second fiddle to the fighters. High-levels are getting what they've been due.

Then that's a symptom of bad design. 3E goes some way to correcting it, but not far enough IMO.

It may be a structural imbalance,

Exactly.

I can see combat becoming much more lame and turning into a hit-point bashing fest.

I LIKE hit point bashing fests.

 

[LostSoul]

I like the Action Dice (Force Points) solution the best.

I don't mind the concept behind save-or-die spells; sometimes they're cool. But I don't think they should be so common. You don't want every fight to start off with save-or-die spells flung from Hasted (and, if there's time, Improved Invisible) Wizards.

 

[Al]

Consider again that if you didn't keep losing characters, you wouldn't _need_ raise dead and other such crutches.

You'd still need Raise Dead if players die from being smacked repeatedly.

Consider again that if there weren't all these attacks, you wouldn't _need_ defenses like death ward, dimension door, teleport, and so on.

That's a silly argument. You might as well ban fire spells in order to stop defenses like Protection from Fire; or ban melee combat in order to stop armour. Banning both the offensive and defensive sides to a coin doesn't solve anything: it just narrows the scope of the game.

There's nothing wrong with healing magic. Every heal spell is another spell slot gone on something that might have been a blast or buff spell, or another item charge used up. It comes down to using up the party resources, as always.

True, but if all combat are hit-point bashes, it turns into a war of attrition of who runs out of healing first. Or if you actually take out a combatant with hit-point bashing before their resources run out, it's no different in principle to save-or-die.

Then that's a symptom of bad design. 3E goes some way to correcting it, but not far enough IMO.

I eagerly await your fix .

I LIKE hit point bashing fests.

Good for you. I don't.