D&D 5E Save Our Villians

[Nebulous]

The one thing I've noticed is a distinct lack of counterspells in NPC descriptions. So I have not used it against my players much yet. But it seems almost a shield/magic missile/mage armor type of spell. If you are a caster and you expect to fight other casters you don't leave home without it.

I think if I used it on them a few times I could persuade them of a house rule to turn it into always being a check and maybe it doesnt take up a prepared/known slot. If it's on your class spell list you just have it.

The way Dispel Magic and Counterspell works in 5e, yeah, you'd never leave home without it.

Are those spells on the cleric/druid list?

 

[Celtavian]

I tend to think of what a villain needs to survive in a D&D world. I find module designers rarely think about this. They make these threats that would not be threats in the world they reside in due to a lack of many items required to survive in a D&D world. I like to build the relationships and power structure around this idea for the villain.

Some of the questions that I think about:
1. Can a person obtain and hold power in a D&D world without magical support? The answer to that question is no. It is literally not possible to build and hold power on any large scale without powerful magical support in a D&D world. So when a module designer does not supply a supposedly powerful NPC or creature that is threatening an area with magical support, they have failed. Why? Because as soon as someone shows up with magical support, that individual is done. They will be fairly easily defeated and their reign as a villain is over.

2. Can a villain survive a party of powerful adventurers novaing on them? If the answer is no, they are not a particularly worthwhile villain given that in a D&D world a powerful group of adventurers showing up on your doorstep as local heroes or paid hitters is fairly common. If they don't have the means to deal with that, they won't hold power very long. I generally handle this question by constructing an NPC villain a support party be it monsters that can supply the power or a group of adventurers on their side. I don't have them spread out for easy defeat piecemeal. I have them near the villain and capable of massing quickly for mutual defense. This idea of solo villain waiting in his room to be killed is not something I consider a worthwhile villain.

I solve this problem for monsters by boosting hit points, AC, or defensive powers. I find module designers to be amongst the poorest designers of villain defense. They think an impressive offense is going to do something against 4 to 6 PCs blowing off all their offensive powers. If the creature can't defend itself, it's not going to last long enough to do much offense. Any worthwhile villain should be powerful enough to repel a fairly powerful group quickly.

3. All this is much harder to do in 5E given how the game mechanics are set up. This Bounded Accuracy makes things too easy to hit. Hit points are way too low. Defensive capabilities are weak. I'm told this is by design given combats are only supposed to last 18 seconds. That doesn't bother me against mooks. When a powerful villain is supposed to die in 18 seconds or less, that is not a powerful villain. Can you imagine if Darth Vader lasted 18 seconds against Luke? Or Mordred lasted 18 seconds? Or Smaug was beaten in 18 seconds? Or the Balrog in 18 seconds? Or the Witchking of Angmar? Or The Hulk? Or any of numerous villains in stories. None of them would have lasted to become formidable villains. It's not sensible, memorable, or epic villain design.

 

[Hand of Evil]

There are rules:

• Do NOT leave a body - no body or way to ID the body, means the villain can come back!
• Body Double - old hat but doppelganger the bad guy is still a good trick.
• Voldemort - he was not the first character to place part of his life force somewhere else, there is a old Sinbad movie where the wizard has his heart in a tower but you get the point.
• World Death Myth - it is D&D, even if the body is there their are ways to come back, things like escaping from hell, deals with demons or other powers, you just have to build them into you world myth.
• Gives up - nothing wrong for the bad guy to say "I surrender", this is a delaying action for them to loop hole out of court system or escape.
• Too Connected - Some people are just too powerful to be killed by the players. The Three Musketeers had this issue with the Cardinal.

 

[Nebulous]

3. All this is much harder to do in 5E given how the game mechanics are set up. This Bounded Accuracy makes things too easy to hit. Hit points are way too low. Defensive capabilities are weak. I'm told this is by design given combats are only supposed to last 18 seconds. That doesn't bother me against mooks. When a powerful villain is supposed to die in 18 seconds or less, that is not a powerful villain. Can you imagine if Darth Vader lasted 18 seconds against Luke? Or Mordred lasted 18 seconds? Or Smaug was beaten in 18 seconds? Or the Balrog in 18 seconds? Or the Witchking of Angmar? Or The Hulk? Or any of numerous villains in stories. None of them would have lasted to become formidable villains. It's not sensible, memorable, or epic villain design.

I guess it does take some DM finagling to make a villain actually, um, villainous in 5e. You pretty much have to give it the Legendary template and Lair powers and more hit points (yes, this includes Darth Vader and Smaug and the Balrog) and THEN it becomes a worthwhile foe that can handle a party for more than 18 seconds.

 

[Nebulous]

My favorite fight in 5th edition so far was when the PCs willingly surprised two vampires...who both turned out to be two vampire lords. Two legendary creatures. Two rounds into battle the whole party fled for their lives, twelves seconds into combat they knew they were going to die if they didn't run. That made my DM heart smile.

 

[Celtavian]

I guess it does take some DM finagling to make a villain actually, um, villainous in 5e. You pretty much have to give it the Legendary template and Lair powers and more hit points (yes, this includes Darth Vader and Smaug and the Balrog) and THEN it becomes a worthwhile foe that can handle a party for more than 18 seconds.

I have to add more than that. I thought the Lair Actions and the Legendary Actions would change things. My players have reached a level of system mastery where that isn't enough.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

IMO, anything with less than 100 HP x party level is a speedbump in this edition. Monsters are pushovers as written.

Ran a fight this past weekend with a 5th level Paladin, Bard, Thief and Warlock. The boss had 450HP. 18 AC, resistance vs cold, fire, acid. Magic resistance and imposed disadvantage on spell attacks, and if both attacks missed or it made both saves, it took no damage and healed 10HP. Each round it could, as a bonus action, toss out 2 commands or summon d4 spinagons or dretch. 6 attacks. At every 150HP it lost one of it's aspects (so lost 2 attacks, and one of it's bonus action options), then uttered a howl which automatically frightened everything in 30' radius for 1 round and forced a DC 16 con save or be paralyzed (save ends) and granted the creature DR 10 vs all attacks for 1 round.

To my surprise, 0 party deaths, but I did almost get the bard. Would have if a spinagon had rolled decent on either of its last 2 attacks. 2 back to back crits for 60+ damage on the paladin's part helpde move things along. The had some lucky rolling and a decent ambush strategy, but still... this is the kind of thing you need to do if you want a set piece battle. Ignore RAW, and play to your party, not some hypothetical group of chumps they must have playtested on. IMO, the MM throws such softballs you really just have to go outside of the recommended exp budget if you want to make it memorable.

The other advise is dont put a bad guy in the same room with the PC's if you dont want it dead. Escape isnt really a viable option in this edition due to how much player damage output scales vs monster survivability.

 

[Dausuul]

Keep in mind that a party of 4-6 PCs can deliver a horrific beatdown if they all focus fire on one target. And if they know who the villain is, they are likely to do just that. So you have a number of options:

• Make a villain tough enough to take the beatdown. This will likely require several hundred hit points. Be sure to account for debuffs and "save-or-lose" abilities as well as raw damage.
• Put a decoy in front of the party (an illusion or a lieutenant) to absorb the alpha strike, with the real villain only emerging once the PCs have taken some hits and burned a lot of their firepower.
• Give the villain an automatic "escape hatch" that triggers in response to a beatdown. This escape hatch needs to be usable out of turn; beatdowns happen at stunning speed, and by the time it becomes clear that the villain needs to pull the cord, the villain is unlikely to survive to the start of his or her next turn. Ideally it shouldn't even require a reaction. Contingency is perfect for this.
• Similar to the escape hatch, give the villain a way to come back from death. The classic example is a lich, which can be repeatedly beaten down and destroyed and keep on coming back as long as its phylactery survives.
• Give the villain some lieutenants who can counter PC attacks or provide healing support. As you yourself note, a cleric is very good in this role. A mid-level wizard or two with counterspell can give PC spellcasters fits. Also useful are "sticky" lieutenants who can force PCs to engage them instead of the villain.

I'm sure there are others I haven't thought of, but those should be enough to get you going.

 

[Nebulous]

I have to add more than that. I thought the Lair Actions and the Legendary Actions would change things. My players have reached a level of system mastery where that isn't enough.

Do you add something like 10 levels over their PCs level? I think I would also tinker with legendary abilities a little too, like the ones that take 2 actions? Just make it 1.

 

[Nebulous]

IMO, anything with less than 100 HP x party level is a speedbump in this edition. Monsters are pushovers as written.

Ran a fight this past weekend with a 5th level Paladin, Bard, Thief and Warlock. The boss had 450HP. 18 AC, resistance vs cold, fire, acid. Magic resistance and imposed disadvantage on spell attacks, and if both attacks missed or it made both saves, it took no damage and healed 10HP. Each round it could, as a bonus action, toss out 2 commands or summon d4 spinagons or dretch. 6 attacks. At every 150HP it lost one of it's aspects (so lost 2 attacks, and one of it's bonus action options), then uttered a howl which automatically frightened everything in 30' radius for 1 round and forced a DC 16 con save or be paralyzed (save ends) and granted the creature DR 10 vs all attacks for 1 round.

To my surprise, 0 party deaths, but I did almost get the bard. Would have if a spinagon had rolled decent on either of its last 2 attacks. 2 back to back crits for 60+ damage on the paladin's part helpde move things along. The had some lucky rolling and a decent ambush strategy, but still... this is the kind of thing you need to do if you want a set piece battle. Ignore RAW, and play to your party, not some hypothetical group of chumps they must have playtested on. IMO, the MM throws such softballs you really just have to go outside of the recommended exp budget if you want to make it memorable.

.

LOL, when I started reading your description I thought you were leading up to how much of a WUSS encounter it was, and I was like WTF man, this is an insane fight! No, that sounded good, albeit complicated.

Yeah, a solo monster in 5e can get ganked in 5e. I don't even want to think about what 12th level characters can do. It's good to have threads like this to see how others handle it.