Saving Throw vs Death Saving Throw
- Thread starter molepunch
- Start date
CM
Adventurer
After doing some more digging, the Compendium has this bit of information, which is from Dragon 373 (?):
I'm not sure why this hasn't been rolled into the general rules on saving throws, but, while it doesn't explicitly call out death saves, the spirit of the rule implies to me that extra granted death saves that fail don't count against the limit of 3. If they did, allies granting extra death saves might only end up hastening the character's death.
Failed Saving Throw
Sometimes an effect changes as a target fails saving throws against it. The new effect, specified in a “First Failed Saving Throw” or a “Second Failed Saving Throw” entry, takes effect after the target fails a saving throw against the previous effect at the end of the target’s turn. The effect doesn’t change if the creature fails a saving throw against it at a time other than the end of its turn.
Sometimes an effect changes as a target fails saving throws against it. The new effect, specified in a “First Failed Saving Throw” or a “Second Failed Saving Throw” entry, takes effect after the target fails a saving throw against the previous effect at the end of the target’s turn. The effect doesn’t change if the creature fails a saving throw against it at a time other than the end of its turn.
I'm not sure why this hasn't been rolled into the general rules on saving throws, but, while it doesn't explicitly call out death saves, the spirit of the rule implies to me that extra granted death saves that fail don't count against the limit of 3. If they did, allies granting extra death saves might only end up hastening the character's death.
yeah, failed saving throws were updated in PHB2 (and subsequent books) with this tidbit about off-turn saves not counting against you (and it's in the rules compendium that way too).
So, if you're granted a bonus save (i.e. any save other than your normal end of turn save) and you fail it, then it does not penalize you (so if it's a death save, a failure doesn't count against your three strike limit. or if it's an effect that gets worse on a failed save like a medusa gaze, it does not worsen if you fail the bonus save).
There is no need to explicitly call out death saves because death saves are already defined as saving throws and therefore a rule about all saving throws apply to them as well.
(it's only when you're specifically talking about death saves and not other types of saves would an exception need to be made).
so you got it right by your assumption
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DracoSuave
First Post
Colmarr
First Post
I can see a very persuasive argument for saying that failing your third death save at a time other than the end of your turn would not result in you dying (ie. Dying become Dead when you fail that save, which is "an effect changing" and thus the quoted rule applies.
I'm not sure the same logic applies to the first and second saving throws. When you fail your first, you go from Dying to Dying (ie. the effect doesn't change).
Likewise, when you fail your second save, you're still just "Dying". Although the game tracks how many death saves you've failed, it doesn't consider them separate or different effects. If the effect doesn't change, I'm unsure how the "Failed Saving Throw" rule applies by RAW.
... unless you run the argument that the whole Dying > Dying > Dead transition is one effect and the rule applies to all of it, which I can sorta see.
Out of interest, are there any powers in the game that only change their effects on failing a second or third saving throw (ie. X > X > Y)?
I'm not sure the same logic applies to the first and second saving throws. When you fail your first, you go from Dying to Dying (ie. the effect doesn't change).
Likewise, when you fail your second save, you're still just "Dying". Although the game tracks how many death saves you've failed, it doesn't consider them separate or different effects. If the effect doesn't change, I'm unsure how the "Failed Saving Throw" rule applies by RAW.
... unless you run the argument that the whole Dying > Dying > Dead transition is one effect and the rule applies to all of it, which I can sorta see.
Out of interest, are there any powers in the game that only change their effects on failing a second or third saving throw (ie. X > X > Y)?
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
The only one that springs to mind is the aura of the Catoblepas, which does damage equal to your bloodied value if you fail a death saving throw - which, unless the PC has resistance, should kill the PC.
So, not quite what you were getting at...
DracoSuave
First Post
The argument is simpler.
Failing a death saving throw has a negative effect; you're one step closer to dying. Failing saving throws at any time other than the end of your turn cannot have any negative effects. None. Zero.
Colmarr
First Post
Your interpretation here goes far beyond the rules quoted upthread, although I admit it's almost certainly RAI.
I'm not sure I'm happy with any argument that introduces Schrodinger's Death into 4e
Less tongue-in-cheek, the rules quoted upthread refer to an effect "changing" and a "new effect". As I already noted, I'm not sure I agree that Dying (1 failed save) is a different effect to Dying (2 failed saves).
I doubt you'll convince me otherwise, but seeing that I can conceed an argument that the end change from Dying to Dead is a changed effect and thus the rule applies to death saves, that kind of brings the constructive discussion to a close.
While this hasn't been touched on, this thread would suggest that Wardens (due to Font of Life) would get 2 death saving throws per turn, and only if BOTH failed would it count as a "strike". Furthermore, if they succeeded on the death roll the first time, they could use the second for some other condition that required a save. Is there agreement that would be the case?
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