Saving throws and AC - how to allow players to continue rolling to save

[loseth]

If you are using 10+, your actually giving all PCs +2 on every roll. The Orc's BAB should be +3/15 if you want the chances to work out as if rolling RAW.

I've done the same thing and I'm glay they're getting rid of saving throws.


Aaron

+2? How so? When PCs are attacking, the odds (and mechanic) are the same as RAW. When defending, an orc with +5 BAB against an AC of 15 would have a 55% chance of hitting. With an attack of 15 against AC of 5 + d20, the orc has a 45% chance of hitting. So, that's same as RAW on attack, +2 on defence, or +1 on average.

I know +/-10 gives the PCs a slight edge over RAW, but I think this is fine, and more than offset by the ease of using a nice round number for all calculations.

 

[DonTadow]

Ok, here's how I believe saves and AC will work. Mind you, I am not playtesting 4th edition, but our group have been playing an ad hoc version of it with classes heavily modified from SW Saga.

Here are my formulas -

Fortitude = 10 + Level + Con Bonus + Class Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus
Reflex = 10 + Level + Dex Bonus + Class Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus
Will = 10 + Level + Wis Bonus + Class Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus
Armor Class = Reflex + Armor + Shield


Based on the SW Saga system, the players never roll to defend. However, there's an easy way to continue allowing players to roll saves, or defend with their AC -

1) Don't include the base 10.

2) Allow players to roll to save or defend with their AC.

Meaning, a player needs to make a Reflex save versus a fireball. The player rolls a d20, and adds his bonuses (Level + Dex Bonus + Class Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus).

This can also work for Armor Class. An enemy strikes at a player. The total sum of his rolls are 27. If iterative attacks are gone (outside of Rapid Strike/Rapid Shot and Multiattacks, Double/Triple Attack feats from SW Saga), this would be an easy mechanic to resolve. Once again, the player would roll a d20, and add the sum of Reflex + Armor + Shield to defend.

Seems like an easy fix to me for those who aren't fond of static defenses/saves/AC in 4th edition.

Thoughts?

I think this is the variant used to roll defense in 3.5 so it should work.

If you like rolling it works great.

 

[Nine Hands]

So you want to use opposed rolls, sounds fine to me.

One thing about using an opposed roll is that it will keep all player's minds on the game even if it isn't their turn.

I've used it with True 20 and it worked fine.

 

[DonTadow]

So you want to use opposed rolls, sounds fine to me.

One thing about using an opposed roll is that it will keep all player's minds on the game even if it isn't their turn.

I've used it with True 20 and it worked fine.

If you're a decent dM, you wouldn't need to create extra mechanics to keep your players interests. If a player isn't paying attention you skip his turn. D and D has always been a catch 22. Rolling dice is like clicking on the start menu in a really involved game. It makes you realize you're playing a game. You have to do it, but you the experience goes better the less you have to do it.

My experience with opposing rolls have always been of chaos with the DM doing a heck of a lot more work than normal and one encounter taking up a good half a game session.

 

[JRR_Talking]

dont like games where u roll a defence

static all the way (like D&D and SPI Dragonquest and RM) for me please

 

[DreamChaser]

I like the new system as well. The idea that physical attacks are determined by aggressor roll and static defense and magical / special attacks are determined by defender roll and fixed attack has always been strange to me. Choose 1 or the other.

I personally, would not want to play in a game where every action that I take (attacking, casting, etc) comes down (success wise) so someone else roll.

The nice thing about rolling attack / fixed defense is that with AoE spells / effects only 1 roll is needed other than damage no matter how many targets there are.

If you think about it a wizard rolls a casting check when they use color spray essentially determines how well he/she completed the spell (1d20 + modifiers), just like a fighter determines how well he swings his/her sword). From there, the target's defense comes into play.

A wizard might blow the roll out of the water (19+mods) which means most people are going to be caught by it; they might also do poorly (2+mods) which means that only medocre people will be caught by it. Regardless, only 1 roll is needed. Thus faster and the CONTROL remains with the ACTOR rather than the ACTED UPON.

DC