Saving throws for melee classes

[kitcik]

Well, I agree there and that is what I am playing in now. Even though we have a full druid, she is a beginner and is tier 4ish.

That is why my monk can contribute nicely - a bit more optimized than the rest of the party.

But it would still be nice to have a melee option in level 2 for the more high-powered campaigns.

 

[Jimlock]

As I have said before, full caster = Tier 1, fighter, et al, = Tier 5. ToB = Tier 3. Better, but no cigar. Let's at least get a melee class or two into Tier 2 and call it a day.

A little more boost, without wildly changing the game mechanics, couldn't hurt IMHO. But that is just an opinion (albeit mine).

This is definitely one way to approach things.

On the other hand, personally, I prefer to look things the other way around... meaning that I prefer to downgrade casters rather than upgrading the martial classes. I also believe that this can be achieved through RAW, at least for the powerful arcane ones. I have voiced this opinion in this forum one time too many... so I better not get into it AGAIN

Without any intention to derail the thread or to counter-argue the quoted phrases, I simply want to say that there is also another school of thought in respect to class balance.

Now, more to the point. Are those feats balanced?

Hmmm.... My opinion is that... no they are not balanced, still I could say that it depends on how one sees things.

In a Campaign where spellcasters are let loose, being able cast every spell out there, where scrolls are easy to make/obtain and where a caster can polymorph freely into anything in the Monster Manuals, I'd probably say that those feats are certainly powerful, yet not so bad/unbalanced in respect to the casters of the campaign.

Taking a closer look at the numbers, I believe that there is another problem.

Let's take the sample ranger you posted above, and let's see how the feat works out in case he applies it to Fortitude (a good save).

A 10th level Ranger with (+7 / +7 / +3) saves, and you take Surge of Fortitude. Let's say your Con is 12.

Someone casts "save or suck" 5th level spell with a DC 19 For save.

Your chance to fail before feat: roll 11 or higher --> 50%

Your chance to fail after feat: 45% (fail first after +1 from feat) x 15% (fail second with +7x2 +1 Con +1 feat) --> 6,75%

Now, this 6,75% is close to "immunity" to all Fortitude Saves...

EDIT: I understand that this happens only once per day, still an important For Save is not rolled many times during a day....


Don't know.... now that I think of it, this once per day factor certainly balances things out a lot...

 

[Belzbet]

But it would still be nice to have a melee option in level 2 for the more high-powered campaigns.

Even in high level campaigns fighters (or more generally melee PC's ) can still be VERY HELPFUL. I mena if my PC's (very high powered, but started at lv1) didnt have as an ally some melee PC's then they would ahve all died long time ago. IN THE LOWER LEVELS MELEE IS CRUCIAL. We can get fancy and categorize classes in tiers but they all shine at some time or another. At higher levels spellcasters shine but this doesnt have to be the case (run low magic campaigns if you have a problem with casters). D&D is a world of MAICGm I am sure MANY of you DM's here have FANTASTIC beings and STRONG magic that surrounds and tis an integral part of your game world. WHY SHOULDNT A SPELLCASTER have access to this world shakering magic (at least at high levels). Yeah someone who doesnt study magic WILL NOT have access to this power. BUT MELEE PC"S STILL HAVE THEIR USE EVEN AT HIGH LEVELS. My WIZARD CANT CAST POLYMORPH OR SHAPECHANGE ALL DAY, in a LONG (day, days) of battle melee PC's are a MUST (even at high levels, NPC's have access to dimension lock and antimagic). I mean it is in a large part DM DEPENDENT on how affective the classes will be (since ANY DM can construct an adventure were spellcasters ARE NOT HELPFUL; although those spellcasting players may feel like your picking on them).

 

[Belzbet]

How do you feel about these feats?

I think they are nice, and not OP. I mean some luck feats and action point feats acheive similar things(a prereq may be something to consider as jackinthe green has said),. At high levels you will have a massive base save (1/day). I dont think this means you have immunity to all fort saves (or will saves, etc). A paladin has HUGE saves (for mosr paladins put some care into their cha.), so the melee calss this may be overpowered for is the paladin (since their saves are HUGE already). If a paladin took all three of these feats it would be hard to affect it (since it would win many saves and when it doesnt win one it could call in its feat usage). However that is three feats and a paladins feat slots are precious. So i dont know....

 

[Dandu]

Shapechange lasts 10 minutes/level. Assuming a caster level of 21, that's 210 minutes. Extended with a metamagic Rod, that's 420 minutes. Divided by 60, that's 7... hours.

Fighters can go suck it at higher levels.

 

[Jimlock]

Dandu, we 've fought over this a lot of times. I like wizards and spellcasters as much as you do, but IMHO you always seem to compare classes beyond the context of a campaign/story...

To me, it seems like you compare them as if they were in a ring, with the caster always adequately prepared with all spells and magical items needed to face the given foe.


PC vs PC in an open field is not the only way to compare classes.

 

[Dandu]

Who says I was comparing PC vs PC?

In a party, the members are expected to contribute to defeating an obstacle such as, say, the Tarrasque or a rampaging horde of barbarians. I am simply pointing out that a Fighter brings much less to the group than other classes, and could probably be replaced by a good cleric or druid, both at high levels and at lower ones.

If you doubt it, why don't you set up a game and I'll join? I'm sure we can find three other people to fill out all the roles.

 

[kitcik]

Uh oh. Here is where I agree with Jimlock on everything...

This is definitely one way to approach things.

On the other hand, personally, I prefer to look things the other way around... meaning that I prefer to downgrade casters rather than upgrading the martial classes. I also believe that this can be achieved through RAW, at least for the powerful arcane ones. I have voiced this opinion in this forum one time too many... so I better not get into it AGAIN

Without any intention to derail the thread or to counter-argue the quoted phrases, I simply want to say that there is also another school of thought in respect to class balance.

I agree with this. I think the best way to nerf casters is to greatly increase the chance of spell interruption. I just haven't been able to figure out an easy way to do it - and the hard way, major mechanic changes, is a pain.

Now, more to the point. Are those feats balanced?

Hmmm.... My opinion is that... no they are not balanced, still I could say that it depends on how one sees things.

In a Campaign where spellcasters are let loose, being able cast every spell out there, where scrolls are easy to make/obtain and where a caster can polymorph freely into anything in the Monster Manuals, I'd probably say that those feats are certainly powerful, yet not so bad/unbalanced in respect to the casters of the campaign.

I agree with this too.

Taking a closer look at the numbers, I believe that there is another problem.

Let's take the sample ranger you posted above, and let's see how the feat works out in case he applies it to Fortitude (a good save).

A 10th level Ranger with (+7 / +7 / +3) saves, and you take Surge of Fortitude. Let's say your Con is 12.

Someone casts "save or suck" 5th level spell with a DC 19 For save.

Your chance to fail before feat: roll 11 or higher --> 50%

Your chance to fail after feat: 45% (fail first after +1 from feat) x 15% (fail second with +7x2 +1 Con +1 feat) --> 6,75%

Now, this 6,75% is close to "immunity" to all Fortitude Saves...

EDIT: I understand that this happens only once per day, still an important For Save is not rolled many times during a day....


Don't know.... now that I think of it, this once per day factor certainly balances things out a lot...

I agree with this as well. It is more powerful on the good save than I was originally thinking. Now, is one "fail on a 1 only" {essentially based on the %} save per day at the cost of a feat unbalancing vs. the power of casters? I am not sure.

 

[kitcik]

Even in high level campaigns fighters (or more generally melee PC's ) can still be VERY HELPFUL. I mena if my PC's (very high powered, but started at lv1) didnt have as an ally some melee PC's then they would ahve all died long time ago. IN THE LOWER LEVELS MELEE IS CRUCIAL. We can get fancy and categorize classes in tiers but they all shine at some time or another. At higher levels spellcasters shine but this doesnt have to be the case (run low magic campaigns if you have a problem with casters). D&D is a world of MAICGm I am sure MANY of you DM's here have FANTASTIC beings and STRONG magic that surrounds and tis an integral part of your game world. WHY SHOULDNT A SPELLCASTER have access to this world shakering magic (at least at high levels). Yeah someone who doesnt study magic WILL NOT have access to this power. BUT MELEE PC"S STILL HAVE THEIR USE EVEN AT HIGH LEVELS. My WIZARD CANT CAST POLYMORPH OR SHAPECHANGE ALL DAY, in a LONG (day, days) of battle melee PC's are a MUST (even at high levels, NPC's have access to dimension lock and antimagic). I mean it is in a large part DM DEPENDENT on how affective the classes will be (since ANY DM can construct an adventure were spellcasters ARE NOT HELPFUL; although those spellcasting players may feel like your picking on them).

Polymorph - see Dandu's response below.
Melee - Divine Might or Wild Shape, etc. who needs melee class?
Anti-caster adventures - you made the point yourself

Don't misunderstand. I get where you are coming from & your ideas are valid. I just have a different viewpoint.

Shapechange lasts 10 minutes/level. Assuming a caster level of 21, that's 210 minutes. Extended with a metamagic Rod, that's 420 minutes. Divided by 60, that's 7... hours.

Fighters can go suck it at higher levels.

I think they are nice, and not OP. I mean some luck feats and action point feats acheive similar things(a prereq may be something to consider as jackinthe green has said),. At high levels you will have a massive base save (1/day). I dont think this means you have immunity to all fort saves (or will saves, etc). A paladin has HUGE saves (for mosr paladins put some care into their cha.), so the melee calss this may be overpowered for is the paladin (since their saves are HUGE already). If a paladin took all three of these feats it would be hard to affect it (since it would win many saves and when it doesnt win one it could call in its feat usage). However that is three feats and a paladins feat slots are precious. So i dont know....

Having a paladin immune to spells is like having a monk immune to melee (ridiculous AC) - just kill them last.