Yes, I realize it, but with all the stuff available to players I also know how easy it is to get around this... They are supposed to be weak casters. I am thinking of altering thier spell lists to have more duration type spells, things they cast before going into battle, things with duration in tens of minutes or hours...I know durations got shorter in 3.5 but I think there are still some spells that could be good. I don't really think of them as primary casters, or even secondary casters; they are tertiary casters, like arcane paladins, but dark, and not at all paladiny...