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Scene Framing and "Surprising the GM" -- An Innerdudian Case Study

timASW

Banned
Banned
And here's the thing @Hussar , I fully understand your desire to skip that scene, the same way I understood Player 1's desire to skip ahead to the dig. I think if there was a problem in my group, it was 75% my fault, maybe more, for not successfully framing the alternative scenes in such a way that players 2, 3, and 4 could completely grasp the consequences.

Truthfully too, I might have been frustrated in your shoes too if the GM kept insisting on having the PCs interact with irrelevant material. I also agree with N'raac to a degree too though, where he asserts that the relevance of a given scene isn't always fully understood by the players at the moment, but can become clearer as the GM develops things down the line. But on the whole, in my mind, when in doubt, give the players as much freedom as you can. Empowered players are engaged players, and engaged players are generally invested in what's happening at the table.

Theres no such thing as Irrelevant material. Theres only stuff the PLAYERS dont know the relevance of yet. As usual Hussar is simply wrong. Dont let him sway you.

The characters have no idea where they might find the next piece of their current important challenge, or where they may find a tip that leads to their next important challenge. Because they dont neither should their players.

Railroading is just as bad when a player does it as when a GM does. And thats what He's advocating, Player Railroading.

Cut out the personal swipes. We're talking about playing magical gumdrop elves, here, it's not worth getting personal over. ~ KM
 
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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
I think we tend to exaggerate the extent to which GMs have a more complete view of play than other players. They might have a better understanding of setting (particularly in home-brewed play), but we tend to place a clairvoyance that in my experience running games is somewhat unrealistic. We might have an agenda and ideas about what might happen, but we have a woefully incomplete idea of what goes through our players heads as well as their concept of the material we are presenting.

Speaking personally, I prepare on a session by session basis. I use the established setting to try to put pressure on players to make interesting decisions, but I have a relatively light agenda. When play is proceeding on a solid clip and players are engaged, my job is easy. I do minimal prep with an emphasis on ensuring the initial moments of play drive towards an exciting narrative, but am otherwise hands off. Setting and situation creation decisions are made with an eye towards play and can often occur in the middle of the session.

I've tried GMing in a traditional way, but it just did not work for me. I've got a talent for drama, characterization, and mythology, but I make for a poor reality simulation device. I think when we by default demand that GMs must have some preternatural understanding of setting, pace, our players agendas, etc. we're not really being honest with new GMs or ourselves really. The expectations are set too high and we place ourselves on a pedastool above our players that can be harmful to group dynamics.
 

Hussar

Legend
... unless that player is the GM.

Which neatly highlights the fundamental philosophical divide in these discussions.

If the DM has a scene in mind that none of the players have any investment in, and can't be engaged with until the DM forces the players to play out that scene, then the DM is doing a very, very poor job. If the only person at the table with any investment in the next scene is the DM, then the DM has completely failed to convey any important information to the players and has failed to hook the players in any significant way.

So, yeah, if the DM feels that we should play through the next scene, but no one else at the table has any compelling reason to do so, then that DM needs to step back and re-evaluate how he runs his game.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think we tend to exaggerate the extent to which GMs have a more complete view of play than other players.

<snip>

I prepare on a session by session basis. I use the established setting to try to put pressure on players to make interesting decisions, but I have a relatively light agenda. When play is proceeding on a solid clip and players are engaged, my job is easy. I do minimal prep with an emphasis on ensuring the initial moments of play drive towards an exciting narrative, but am otherwise hands off. Setting and situation creation decisions are made with an eye towards play and can often occur in the middle of the session.
All of that makes sense to me.

In my most recent session, several of the PCs got sucked into an Abyssal Breach. According to that stats of the Breach (with which the players were familiar, via PC knowledge checks), a character who is sucked in is "removed from play" - which, in 4e, means no actions and no line of effect to anything. But with each of the PCs sucked into the breach, the player made a case for having his/her PC do something. The primordial-worshipping, chaos sorcerer Demonskin Adept - who had been hoping to second wind on the turn that was lost by being removed from play - sent out a call to any chaotic power that might hear him, and was answered (as it turned out, not by his patron Chan, Queen of good air elementals, but by Yan-c-bin, Prince of evil air elementals) and hence got his second wind. And the Sceptre of Law (= Rod of 7 Parts), Erathis-worshipping Sage of Ages, who had been planning to bring down the breach from the outside, started making knowledge and skill checks to bring down the breach from the inside (and made skill checks to avoid being spat out of the breach when its "removed from play" effect normally would end) - with the help, it turned out, of the paladin of the Raven Queen who also got sucked into the breach.

The presence in the game of these various story elements - the PC backgrounds and loyalties, the Abyssal Breach, the conflict between Chan and Yan-c-bin - were all established. Likewise the basic mechanical framework. But how it is all going to play out; what steps the PCs will take; the idea (for instance) that one of the PCs might get sucked into the breach and in doing so receive a boon from his patron's mortal enemey; all that, including the elaboration of backstory that it involves (does Yan-c-bin know and/or care about Chan's disciple? what happens when you go inside an Abyssal Breach?), is worked out during play.

The above example deals with somewhat micro-level details of action resolution, although they are tightly connected to broader concerns of the campaign. But I find the same approach can be applied to more macro-details as well, like trips from A to B, and adjusting what is expected to happen at B in light of what the players want their PCs to do, and to be involved with.

If the DM has a scene in mind that none of the players have any investment in, and can't be engaged with until the DM forces the players to play out that scene, then the DM is doing a very, very poor job. If the only person at the table with any investment in the next scene is the DM, then the DM has completely failed to convey any important information to the players and has failed to hook the players in any significant way.
I would add to this that the GM has a different role from the players in most approaches to D&D.

If the GM is a referee of Gygaxian/Pulsipherian dungeon crawling, then the GM must (i) set up an exciting, engaging, perhaps wacky dungeon and associated environment, but (ii) not let his/her desire for excitement/wackiness affect his/her refereeing in any sort of unfair way. The GM has to be neutral, and not change the parameters of the situation on the fly, or else the players can't make meaningful choices, use their divination spells, take advantage of prelminary mapping and scouting, etc.

If the GM is a referee of a worldbuilding, sandbox game then the GM must (i) build an interesting, "realistic" (in the appropriate sense) gameworld, but (ii) must let the players make choices for their PCs that are themselves "real" within that gameworld, and that might change the world. The GM in this sort of game who constantly blocks player choices, or who takes steps (eg via NPCs, gods etc) to ensure that player choices never really make any difference to the GM's world, is in my view not being fair to the basic premise of thise sort of game.

If the GM is running a scene-framing game that is player driven in the sort of way that Hussar is describing, then the GM still has a lot of power - aspects of world building and theme-selection may be shared, but the GM still probably has the lion's share of authority over backstory, and over the narration of complications. But in order to respect the players choices about theme, PC backstory, thematic focus etc, the GM is obliged not to run roughshod over those by constantly framing situations and narrating compications that speak to none of that. Which is, I think, Hussar's point.

What is the role of the players in a game in which the GM has authority over backstory, and world-building, and scene-framing, and narration of complications, to the extent where these powers may be exercised entirely as the GM thinks would make for an interesting story, with no expectation that these powers will be exercised with regard to the players' evinced preferences (as evinced either at start-up, or in play)? As far as I can tell, all the players get to do is narrate their PCs' responses to ingame situations, in effect adding colour to the GM's story but not much else. That seems to be a more common approach to RPGing than one might suppose a priori, but I take it as obvious that it's not the only viable one.
 

Hussar

Legend
Pemerton said:
What is the role of the players in a game in which the GM has authority over backstory, and world-building, and scene-framing, and narration of complications, to the extent where these powers may be exercised entirely as the GM thinks would make for an interesting story, with no expectation that these powers will be exercised with regard to the players' evinced preferences (as evinced either at start-up, or in play)? As far as I can tell, all the players get to do is narrate their PCs' responses to ingame situations, in effect adding colour to the GM's story but not much else. That seems to be a more common approach to RPGing than one might suppose a priori, but I take it as obvious that it's not the only viable one.

Actually, there are pretty good reasons for this. For one, a lot of DMing advice, particularly in AD&D, places the DM in a very privileged position with the DM at the top of the pyramid. Plus, a large number of modules work exactly the way you are describing and I think a number of DM's, myself included, looked to modules as a basis for how to run a game. I started play long before the Internet, so, I was essentially stumbling around in the dark, with High Gygaxian as a guide. Not the best place to start IMO.

Additionally, it takes a lot of pressure off the players. The players only need to react, never actually be pro-active. The DM is seen as the generator of complications and the players play off of those complications. Heck, virtually every CRPG ever made works exactly this way. It's a tried and proven approach to playing a game.
 

pemerton

Legend
Actually, there are pretty good reasons for this. For one, a lot of DMing advice, particularly in AD&D, places the DM in a very privileged position with the DM at the top of the pyramid. Plus, a large number of modules work exactly the way you are describing and I think a number of DM's, myself included, looked to modules as a basis for how to run a game. I started play long before the Internet, so, I was essentially stumbling around in the dark, with High Gygaxian as a guide. Not the best place to start IMO.
I associate this sort of approach more with AD&D 2nd ed than the High Gygaxian era, but that's probably due to my own experiences - the release of 2nd ed coincided with my starting university and encountering other players and GMs there. I find it very easy to believe that 2nd ed simply codified and reiterated what was already going on to a significant extent.

On the topic of 2nd ed AD&D, I recently got a copy of the PHB from a friend who was clearing out old books, and so actually read through it for the first time. The assumptions it makes about the role of the GM (which, in effect, function as GMing advice) struck me as just horrible. Which I guess reiterates your point.

Additionally, it takes a lot of pressure off the players. The players only need to react, never actually be pro-active. The DM is seen as the generator of complications and the players play off of those complications. Heck, virtually every CRPG ever made works exactly this way. It's a tried and proven approach to playing a game.
So the difference between TTRPG and CRPG becomes one of sociality, aesthetics (human voices, etc, rather than text and screen) and so on rather than fundamentals of play? That would help explain how CRPGing kills off TTRPGing.

I guess there's also the old idea that "in a TTRPG you can try anything" - the GM's fiat isn't limited in scope in the way it might be in a computer game. So the colour that the players can contribute goes wider in scope than it would in a CRPG.
 

Hussar

Legend
Really, Pem, I do think that's the long and the short of it. There are DM's out there who do not want the players to have authorial control in the game. Which means that the only things the player can accomplish are what the character within the fiction can accomplish. Since the DM controls the window of what the player can interact with, the player has no real choice but to simply react to what the DM puts out there.

I mean, heck, look at that horrendously long thread we're participating in about surprising the DM. That's pretty much exactly what's being talked about. And, you have players who don't want to be able to influence the game any more than they think their character should be able to influence. The whole, "deep immersion" set who see the game as a sort of fantasy world sim. Which means, just like in the real world, you can't really do anything that is beyond your capabilities and the world exists separate from the campaign being played.
 

JustinAlexander

First Post
...then the DM has completely failed to convey any important information to the players and has failed to hook the players in any significant way.

This is unsurprising given that you veto any scene that would establish new elements of the setting/story that you're unaware of.

It's not so much a chicken-and-egg problem, it's just that you're violently opposed to the DM having an equal voice at the table.
 

innerdude

Legend
This is unsurprising given that you veto any scene that would establish new elements of the setting/story that you're unaware of.

It's not so much a chicken-and-egg problem, it's just that you're violently opposed to the DM having an equal voice at the table.

The question is, where does the balance of veto power reside? I think Hussar definitely has a point--why should I as a player invest time in playing out scenes that from my view have little to no "relevance" to my character's goals in game, and / or my goals as a player to maximize my enjoyment?

Hussar's made it very clear that his tolerance of "tangential" material is low. I can't fault him for that. I currently have a player in my group who's like that as well. I like this player, I want to continue playing with this player indefinitely, and his desire to avoid "superfluous" scenes is something I have to account for.

I think this thread has given me some excellent ideas for getting the players to more readily "sync" their agendas through in-character interaction (thanks a ton Celebrim! :)).

However, I will say this as well---if players are getting crappy scenes to interact with, in my experience it's occasionally because the players have never bothered to include "hook points" in their character backgrounds, builds, or attitude. I see players ALL THE TIME who just show up at the table, throw out some wacky min-max character build with only the thinnest line of marginal connection to the GM's prepared material, and then wonder why it's so hard for the GM to give them "the awesome."

(I'm not saying anyone participating in this thread does it, I'm just commenting on my own experience.)

I think as a player you have to be willing to do one of two things---either bring a good, defined character concept that's relevant to the campaign, or be willing to wade through a GM's herky-jerky, start-and-stop attempts at trying to assimilate the "character concept hodge-podge" into something coherent.

I know not all groups agree, but to me the whole reason to have a GM is to have someone there to create a plot, a setting, and a story that allow the players to build their own personal "narratives," both in and out of character. If there's no reason for "story," why not just play a tactical minis game instead? But the question I've been trying to resolve in my head, based on my experience, is why did the "transition scene" from the city to the dig site seem to break down in play? Was it competing player agendas? If so, did I need to take more time to be aware of those agendas? Was it a problem with scene framing, where the consequences of choices were unclear, and thus the players didn't have a clear conception of what to do? Was it bound to happen no matter what I did, given that 3 of the 4 players have (to this point) weakly defined in-game motivations? But if I knew they had weakly defined character motives, should I have presented alternate, or additional scenes in which those motivations could have been expressed in-game?

I also don't think that a GM giving players what they want inevitably leads to the GM "missing out" on something. If the players understand that the GM is actively trying to produce certain themes, and interesting scenes to engage, the group can build a synergy toward that goal together.
 

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