Scent and Darkvision vs Shadowdancer

[DrSpunj]

As long as the grapler had concealment, he could Hide....and still be grappling. ...of course, that's way too silly, but it illustrates my point: when attacking there has to be a point at which you say "Hide cannot be applied here".

Right, and for me that line is crossed as soon as he who is hidden touches his target. Another sense besides Vision is now involved and therefore the Hide/Spot rules are no longer the sole determining factor in the outcome. Under the RAW if Grok the orc was instead Loopy the Werewolf the SD would be screwed even before the Grapple attempt. Why? Because another sense, Scent this time, enters the equation.

In any case, RAW doesn't explicitly cover a Full Round melee attack, so it's a DMs call.

Exactly. Please go through all of my posts in this thread. I tried very hard to make sure I used phrases like "IMC", "As the DM I would", etc. If I missed it once or twice leading you to believe I think the rulings I have proposed are the absolutely only way to rule in this situation I apologize, but I think the RAW are ambiguous, as you just reiterated, and therefore have tried to come to a conclusion that sits well with me. You, apparently, have found a different interpretation for your/our game, which I'll remember if we ever come up against an opponent with HiPS (as I can't see any of the PCs acquiring the ability in this campaign).

Allowing a Full Attack action from Hiding while requiring an opposed check with each attack seems balanced to me to try it this way for initial playtesting. Realize that because of the Cover/Concealment requirements for Hiding this is only going to happen with SDs or others with a HiPS-like ability. I don't think SDs are so powerful that this is out of line, nor do I think it unfairly penalizes the SD's target (while a single opposed check to represent the SD's entire Full Attack would, IMO).

(BTW: allow Full Round melee attack but NOT allow Full Round ranged attack? Why?)

Why the designers or why me? For the former I can't answer, but for me because there are clear rules for Sniping that trying it is a Move Action. I think it's perfectly reasonable to extrapolate that a Move Action is therefore required after a Melee Attack (negating a Full Attack action while hiding); I just don't know if it's fair/balanced/fun to do so and until I've had a chance to formally judge for myself I tend to read things on the Options side rather than the Restrictions side. I know Your Mileage DOES Vary!

I'd like to see a SD in play for a bit using the HiPS ability, but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon in my game or yours, so this is something to be filed away for the future. I do enjoy debates like this, though, because it forces me to really take a good look at different sections of the rules hopefully giving me a better grasp of the system as a whole.

Why? No concealment? HiPS doesn't require conventional concealment. Moreover "touching" or "hearing" is not covered by the Hide skill. This means (presumably) that you can Hide, and still be heard.
...again: silly (thus probably not IMC), but RAW.

Common Sense. But if you want to get more pedantic about it the Hide rules DO cover this, the Hide section says this:

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.

Here's the definition of 'observe':

ob·serve ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-zûrv)
v. ob·served, ob·serv·ing, ob·serves; v. tr.
To be or become aware of, especially through careful and directed attention; notice.
To watch attentively: observe a child's behavior.
To make a systematic or scientific observation of: observe the orbit of the moon.
To say casually; remark.
To adhere to or abide by: observe the terms of a contract.
To keep or celebrate (a holiday, for example): observe an anniversary.

v. intr.
To take notice.
To say something; make a comment or remark.
To watch or be present without participating actively: We were invited to the conference solely to observe.

Would you like to argue that someone touching you (especially in a grapple) would not cause you to become aware of them or notice them?

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Abraxas]

Maybe...

But I'd put some heavy situational modifiers on the check, since you're attached to a guy.

And you can't hide from the guys you are attached to.

I think the -20 penalty is a hefty enough situational modifier (the only thing harder than nearly impossible is impossible )
With HiPS I would allow the SD to Hide from the guy she's grappling.

All its going to do is introduce a 50% miss chance on any attacks (but not on grappling checks) launched at the SD and give the SD a +2 bonus to attacks launched at the victim.

Grappling automatically causes the loss of DEX bonus to AC (for both characters) and the victim can pinpoint the location of the SD (he's holding on to her) which takes away a big benefit of being able to hide in plain sight.

In 3.0... hide was used as a move action or as part of a move action.

Nothing I've seen has changed that in 3.5.​

​

The thing that has changed is that in 3.0 you couldn't hide at all while attacking . . .​

From the 3.0 PHB, pg 69 "Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. At more than one-half and up to your full speed, you suffer a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while running or charging." The option to Hide while attacking didn't exist so it makes sense that the 3.0 FAQ wouldn't reference anything but HiPS while moving.​

The addition of attacking to the nearly impossible actions to undertake while hiding makes the 3.0 FAQ answer meaningless except in demonstrating that HiPS does not require a Standard Action to use in and of itself.​

If you're just using the Hide skill (presumably with HiPS), under my interpretation you're forced to make an opposed check with each attack during a Full Attack action, all of them with the -20 penalty. Fail one and you're no longer successfully Hiding so you don't get Sneak Attack damage and will have to try and Hide again on your turn.​

​

I agree that an opposed check with the -20 penalty should be made with each attack during a full attack action. I would allow the SD to attempt another opposed check after losing one during the full attack action - but it wouldn't help her unless she had another attack to follow the rehiding (is this even a word??? ) attempt.​

SD moves up to target - target blows spot check.​

SD begins full attack routine (for grins lets say she has 3 attacks/round)​

SD makes 1st attack - because she was hidden it is a sneak attack - an opposed check is made (at -20) - SD loses.​

SD makes 2nd attack - it is not a sneak attack - she attempts to rehide and an opposed check is made (at -20) - SD wins​

SD Makes 3rd attack - because she has successfully rehidden it is a sneak attack - an opposed check is made (at -20)​

Continue till target or SD is dead.​

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nail
(BTW: allow Full Round melee attack but NOT allow Full Round ranged attack? Why?)


Why the designers or why me? For the former I can't answer, but for me because there are clear rules for Sniping that trying it is a Move Action.​

Sniping was introduced in Song & Silence - under 3.0 Hiding while attacking wasn't allowed. They created a mechanic to allow a ranged attack (not even a ranged sneak attack) in S&S. All the new uses for the Hide skill in S&S appear to revolve around moving out from cover/concealment and then moving back in to it before the victim notices. As such it would require a move action and thus only 1 attack would be allowed. They appear to have cut and pasted and then replaced attack with sneak attack.

I would allow a full round of sneak attacks from cover (with opposed checks after every attack) but not concealment - because concealment prevents sneak attacks. I would also allow the hider to make a full round of normal attacks from concealment (again with opposed checks after every attack) but they would not be sneak attacks and they would have a % miss chance based on the amount of concealment.

I have played in a campaign where one of the PCs was a rogue/shadow dancer - allowing the above to work didn't make him too powerful. With all the things he couldn't sneak attack, his relatively low HPs and AC, all the things with blindsight or tremorsense or scent, and all the things with access to the blindsight spell plus the enemy rogues with phenomenal Spot checks - it only allowed him to shine once in a while. In only one instance (from levels 8 when he became an SD through 14 - when the campaign ended with a near TPK - the SD survived because of a phenomenal reflex save and evasion not because of HiPS) did the SD drop a BBEG with a full round of sneak attacks. But that was us

​

 

[Majere]

Life as ever is no clearer than it started.
I was about to conceed the point when that post about 3.0/3.5 was posted until someone highlighted that the hide skill HAD infact changed.

I think Ill stick to my interpretation, I dont think Ill convince anyone to changed their stnad this late int eh day. But I can tell you form experience that, really, your damage will always be insignicficant, your ac will suck, and you will have bugger all for hit points as this character

At least let him do something in combat.
Even at level 16 with +38 spot check my shadowdancer only managed to hide about once every 3 rounds while attacking while hidden. And almost everything was immune to sneak attacks, it was more a case of hiding becuase I didnt want it hitting me back.

Majere

 

[mikebr99]

What's this???

A thread ending civilly?

Pah!





Mike

 

[Nail]

I tried very hard to make sure I used phrases like "IMC", "As the DM I would", etc.

You have. I was responding (in part) to other posters.

Allowing a Full Attack action from Hiding while requiring an opposed check with each attack seems balanced to me to try it this way for initial playtesting. .....(snip)..... I don't think SDs are so powerful that this is out of line,..

I agree: it's time for some playtesting. Are SDs played much?

To be honest, I'm actually having more fun poking at the rules than anything else. As we've already changed the Hide/Spot/Mv Silently/Listen skills in our game, much of the RAW quoting isn't terribly relevant. Fun, though...

I'm coming away from this thread with a few new ideas:

• The RAW might allow Full (melee) attacks, but not Full (ranged) attacks. That's strange.
• The RAW might allow grappling while hiding. That's silly.
• The RAW does allow "being noisy" while hiding. That's ....different.
• Hiding should probably be clarified as only part of a move action, not part of an attack.

 

[DrSpunj]

You have. I was responding (in part) to other posters.

Maybe, but you were only quoting me throughout that entire post!

I agree: it's time for some playtesting. Are SDs played much?

I'm curious about this as well. The class sounds cool & fun, but the execution of it (like so many other ideas) is lacking in a lot of ways. The class has a lot of appeal for Rogues, IMO, but by the time you meet the prereqs you've got several of the early abilities (Evasion, UD) and don't receive anything else instead. I've also never much cared for Defensive Roll and Slippery Mind, but had no troubles with them on the Rogue's list since you could choose something else if you wanted.

To be honest, I'm actually having more fun poking at the rules than anything else. As we've already changed the Hide/Spot/Mv Silently/Listen skills in our game, much of the RAW quoting isn't terribly relevant. Fun, though...

Absolutely!

I'm coming away from this thread with a few new ideas:

• The RAW might allow Full (melee) attacks, but not Full (ranged) attacks. That's strange.
• The RAW might allow grappling while hiding. That's silly.
• The RAW does allow "being noisy" while hiding. That's ....different.
• Hiding should probably be clarified as only part of a move action, not part of an attack.

Nice summation.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

Maybe, but you were only quoting me throughout that entire post!

Right. I've read back thru all of that again....sorry about that. Think of it this way: yours are the points I wanted to respond to!

Anybody out there with SD experience?

I played a SD for a one-shot with some old gaming friends back in 3.0e. It wasn't...err.....quite what I had hoped. I had thought, at the time, that much of that impression was the "one-shot-ness" of the game....the adventure was *way* more combat oriented, very high level, and the Clr-archer, Wiz, and Bbn shined. Rogue/SD? We had a rogue?

Slippery Mind and Defensive Roll are not very good abilities, I agree.

 

[Abraxas]

Why? No concealment? HiPS doesn't require conventional concealment. Moreover "touching" or "hearing" is not covered by the Hide skill.

Just FYI from the 3.5 SRD "A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location." So touch can locate an invisible creature, and IMO should be enough to locate one using HiPS to hide also.

I'm coming away from this thread with a few new ideas:

• The RAW might allow Full (melee) attacks, but not Full (ranged) attacks. That's strange.
• The RAW might allow grappling while hiding. That's silly.
• The RAW does allow "being noisy" while hiding. That's ....different.
• Hiding should probably be clarified as only part of a move action, not part of an attack.

• I believe the possible full melee attacks but not full ranged attacks is due to a less than stellar cut and paste job of material that was out before any attack was normally allowed. I would allow a full ranged attack from cover or while using HiPS.
• As for hiding and grappling being silly - i agree somewhat, but I can visualize it as jumping on someones back and pulling their hood over their eyes. You still know where you assailant is but you can't see every move he makes.
• They've pretty much set up hiding as visual only (although in MCs AU I believe he combined hiding and moving silently into one skill to avoid detection - I think that is an excellent way to go)
• I think they should just edit the sniping section to fit the other parts better.

What's this???

A thread ending civilly?

Pah!

If you look at the other SD and HiPS threads they all end pretty civilly

 

[mikebr99]

[*]I believe the possible full melee attacks but not full ranged attacks is due to a less than stellar cut and paste job of material that was out before any attack was normally allowed. I would allow a full ranged attack from cover or while using HiPS

So, in effect, it is just as hard to shoot once and hide, as it is to hide while running (or charging). I would tend to agree, with a thrown weapon, or bow, but not really with a crossbow (especially when you aren't reloading).

If the above is allowed, would you not want to increase the DC even further due to the fact that there is more movement then the one shot sniping (RAW)? Maybe a -30 for full attacking?


Mike

 

[Nail]

Just FYI from the 3.5 SRD ....

Good quoting!

I believe the possible full melee attacks but not full ranged attacks is due to a less than stellar cut and paste job of material that was out before any attack was normally allowed. I would allow a full ranged attack from cover or while using HiPS.

Right. That would have to follow.

Perhaps an additional penalty would be in order? As mikebr99 points out, that single -20 penalty pops up an awful lot, even when combining different actions.

They've pretty much set up hiding as visual only (although in MCs AU I believe he combined hiding and moving silently into one skill to avoid detection - I think that is an excellent way to go)

Me too.

DrSpunj and I, along with others in our group worked on this. We combined Hide and Mv Silently like Monte Cook's AU, tweaked how Spot works, deleted the Listen skill, and added a Sense skill (to cover *all* non-visual senses, including the Scent special ability). That thread is right here. We'd sure like it if you popped over and poked around!