Scheming Rogues

[Andor]

Maybe schemes are the way rogues gain new and better skills.

The acrobat scheme could grant Balance, Climb, Tumble and Evasion.

If the rogue's background grants Pick Pockets Bluff, and Open Locks; the rogue has 3 new skills and evasion

If the rogue's background granted Juggling, Balance, and Joke Telling; the rogue gains 2 new skills, his balance increases, and he gets evasion.

So basically a Scheme acts like a second Backgroud for a rogue? That would nicely cover all the chat about Rogue skillfulness.

I'd be a bit disappointed though, I'm kind of hoping to the the 'pull a scheme' option.

Although it might be fun if they have some of the background schemes grant minor narrative powers to mimic that sort of thing. "Of course I knew I couldn't beat you in a stand up fight Herr Baron, that's why my agent replaced the scepter last night. You hold a fake."

 

[Minigiant]

So basically a Scheme acts like a second Backgroud for a rogue? That would nicely cover all the chat about Rogue skillfulness.

I'd be a bit disappointed though, I'm kind of hoping to the the 'pull a scheme' option.

Although it might be fun if they have some of the background schemes grant minor narrative powers to mimic that sort of thing. "Of course I knew I couldn't beat you in a stand up fight Herr Baron, that's why my agent replaced the scepter last night. You hold a fake."

I see a scheme somewhere between a background and theme. A scheme could maybe grant two skills, a trait, and a feat.

The Negotiator scheme could grant Diplomacy, Sense Motive, a contact, and +2 AC versus special attacks like disarms and trips.

The Acrobat scheme could give Balance, Tumble, sow fall and evasion

The Thug scheme could give Intimidate (via Str), Endurance, a lackey, and a special pounce attack.

And maybe every X levels you could get another one.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I don't believe Schemes will have anything to do with skills myself. I think they will basically be equivalent to Wizard Schools and Cleric Domains-- a way of categorizing the stuff the Rogue does in combat (plus some non-combat).

All of the Wizard's spells (what it does in combat, plus a little non-combat) get broken down by School based upon what the spells do. All of the Cleric's prayers get broken down by Domain based upon the type of deity that grants the prayer. My assumption would be that Rogues have their own set of tricks, attacks, and social graces... and Schemes are the way to group those together. They are the "things" the Rogue does. So you might have 'scams', you might have 'sleight of hand', you might have 'diplomacy', you might have 'burglary' etc. All the cool stuff Rogues do gets broken down into what they are used for.

The other thing about that would be that these Schemes would all have Advanced Themes based on them (the type you get at 6th level), as that is when Wizards can choose Abjurer, Necromancer, Evoker... Fighters could become Axe Specialists (and probably Sword Specialists, Polearm Specialists etc.) and I believe they said that Clerics could become Domain Clerics then too.

So in this format... Rogues ARE NOT just "lightly armored Fighters"... using the exact same martial maneuvers and exploits that Fighters get via feats. Instead, they get Schemes-- their own independent and original set of things to do, that Fighters, Clerics and Wizards DON'T do. To me... this is a very good thing... as it makes the Rogue REALLY its own class... rather than just the little brother of the Fighter.

 

[steeldragons]

I'm with Minigiant on this to a degree. The game seems to already being prepared to take care of this.

It just sounds like a semantic thing, with the desire for "Schemes" being unnecessarily "different" (for the sake of being different) to replace the "Themes" or "Backgrounds" that will already be presented...as clerical "Domains" may be.

Personally, I see no reason that this Scheme scheme would offer anything more or different than class-based (in this case "Rogue") Themes and/or Backgrounds. If there are Rogue-specific Themes that other classes can't take, as opposed to "roguish" things that other classes might be able to choose, then it seems the base is covered for any type of Rogue you want...or can collect a few feats and/or skills and create your own Theme.

Of, perhaps, make some of what you suggest the proposed 6th level available "Advanced Theme", as "Specialist Mages" (i believe we've been told these will be 6th level Advanced Themes) and possibly, "Domain Clerics" will be...you could have "Scheme Rogues" added to the list...and, hmmm what?, "Exploit Fighters" (?) or some such.

It should be no problem (nor game breaking) to decide, within your group, that you can take an Advanced Theme at 1st level instead of 6th...if you prefer/your DM allows it.

Maybe I'm missing the point here...but it just sounds to me like an additional layering of the character (NOTHING wrong with that, mind) where it isn't necessary. A "level of complexity" for "complexity's sake." There are already elements in place (Themes and/or Backgrounds and/or "Advanced" Themes) that will cover this and (hopefully) provides the diversity of class concepts we're all looking for....and if it doesn't, making up your own Theme to satisfy your Scheming itch should be simple enough.

--SD

 

[bloodtide]

Be more pessomistic...
I honestly believe, we will see a great edition soon.

I guess I just feel like D&D has 'crossed the Rubicon'. It would be nice if they could 'get back to basics', but I think the stigma of the 'new flashy pew pew' type stuff is here to stay.

It's bad enough that they can;t even give us a true scoundrel type character as they have such a high code of paladin like ethics. Even worse though is that they can't remove all the 'awesomez coolz' ''improvements'' to the rouge, like they way the sneaky rouge is an all powerful 'striker' that does a billion points of damage to elder great wyrm dracoliches. We can almost know for a fact that they won't go back to 'the rouge character stays out of combat and picks pockets'(not even as an option).

 

[grimslade]

If schemes are rogues versions of schools of magic or cleric domains, I hope they provide a decent array of glut. A spell filcher scheme might incorporate some SR, arcana knowledge and maybe some cantrips access. A bandit scheme might include trapmaking, survival tricks and bonuses to intimidate merchants and petty nobles.

I think without knowing what constitutes a rogues base, it will be hard to determine what schemes enhance. Is backstabbing or sneak attack basic or schematic? Use Magic Device? Skill sets?
What if the cutthroat scheme has 1E style backstab and the mountebank scheme grants sneak attack? What if the bandit scheme has an ambush trick that requires prepping an area for an overwhelming and disorienting attack?

What tricks will set the schemes apart?

 

[the Jester]

I'll reserve judgment until we actually, you know, know something about schemes. Heck, it might even be a reference to a mechanic that gets dropped before we ever see it.

 

[Andor]

I guess I just feel like D&D has 'crossed the Rubicon'. It would be nice if they could 'get back to basics', but I think the stigma of the 'new flashy pew pew' type stuff is here to stay.

It's bad enough that they can;t even give us a true scoundrel type character as they have such a high code of paladin like ethics. Even worse though is that they can't remove all the 'awesomez coolz' ''improvements'' to the rouge, like they way the sneaky rouge is an all powerful 'striker' that does a billion points of damage to elder great wyrm dracoliches. We can almost know for a fact that they won't go back to 'the rouge character stays out of combat and picks pockets'(not even as an option).

Where on earth are you drawing all this from? Every single thing we've seen so far has demphasised the rogue as a glass cannon and pointed towards him being a skill monkey. You know, like in the old days when he was the only one who actually got skills?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Where on earth are you drawing all this from? Every single thing we've seen so far has demphasised the rogue as a glass cannon and pointed towards him being a skill monkey. You know, like in the old days when he was the only one who actually got skills?

Paranoia... seems there was an outbreak somwhere recently...

thank heaven's it is less than a week now until we can make reasonable comments.

 

[Andor]

Paranoia... seems there was an outbreak somwhere recently...

thank heaven's it is less than a week now until we can make reasonable comments.

I can hope, but reason seems to have fallen out of fashion.