D&D 5E Schrodinger's Loot

[Nytmare]

Having the good loot in the dragon's hoard isn't the issue; having that loot in the dragon's hoard until you reach a level where you could take the dragon, when it mysteriously teleports to the big demon's hoard, instead, is the problem.

But if a character did not get that "good loot" that loot never existed. The challenges and payoffs changing around the actions and activities of the player characters are not indicative of the game world itself somehow changing. The dragon's hoard didn't "physically" change inside the game world when the characters leveled up, it is and always was what it is when the players find it.

That quantum state is not something observable from a character's eye view. The cat is neither dead, nor alive, until someone opens up the box to see.

 

[the Jester]

I favor a return to 1e-style treasure types based on the type and number of monsters rather than on encounter difficulty per se.

 

[howandwhy99]

I favor a return to 1e-style treasure types based on the type and number of monsters rather than on encounter difficulty per se.

I think of it like this: I'm generating treasure / equipment for for a group. It's a goblin tribe. They currently lair in a forest, so I check to see how they get their equipment. 2 ways, they scavenge (raid) and craft their own. On the very large scale, this region's goblin culture is pretty savvy with woodworking, so they build their own spears, wooden shields, huts, grass armor, and a lot of NPC class stuff that would take time to really list out.

How much do they have? That's a measure of how many there are, how much material they have on hand, how long they've been able to work without interruption (lair invasion), and so on. This is all Economy game stuff.

Other stuff comes from raiding parties. Who's nearby that they steal from? What other creatures territories overlap with their own? Are there the remnants of any past civilizations goods to be found?

The cool thing is, there can be treasure monsters have crafted themselves, stuff they just rooted around and found and are now using it to the degree to which they understand it, and treasure there could be treasure simply sitting there completely unrecognized.

Not everyone can see magical auras, so sometimes one of those swords in the rack really is "magicked", if old and beat up. Other times it's that stone pillar with weird pictures that actually mean something once you understand the context (like the goblin forest is built upon the remnants of a volcano and the pillar's builders mark this spot the edge of where a cursed city fell into an abyss below when the earth began to shoot fire and rock).

The thing is, for me, Treasure Types just didn't work or make much sense. Yeah, individual treasure was nice, but I could never make heads or tales of the rationales for the rest.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I don't know. I think any group has known that an ancient dragon hoard probably holds the lost treasures of antiquity, but that didn't make us think we could take him at level one.

But now you have to take him at low levels, because if you take him at high levels, his good loot vanishes!

 

[howandwhy99]

But now you have to take him at low levels, because if you take him at high levels, his good loot vanishes!

But that's because it's "Dragon Magic". They don't want to mess with the heavy hitters, they're too smart for that. They leave the treasure out to entice the pipsqueaks that can be used as pawns.

Yeah, I don' care for the Schrodinger's bit either.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I too miss the idea of monsters having a "treasure" entry. Maybe we're too modern for this, but what if every monster had a "treasure class." So by default, TC 1 would be a few silver pieces, TC 5 would be some magic, TC 20 would be an artifact. But the DM can also redefine it based on how much treasure they want to dole out, so TC 1 in a low-magic low-treasure campaign might be iron weapons, TC 4 might be steel, etc.

I think that this and the idea of a 'Dungeon Level' could tie in very well. Then have a chapter in the DMG about building treasure into the game similar to the post by [MENTION=3192]howandwhy99[/MENTION]

There should also be a discussion of built in or used treasure, I would love to get back to the days where looting a dungeon meant scouring it for valuable parts... like the master crafted lock set inside a door

 

[kerleth]

Reality is an illusion.

Everyone keeps refering to the schrodinger treasure vanishing as entirely unrealistic and immersion breaking. First off, it doesn't vanish. Saying it does shows a misunderstanding of the whole schrodinger cat concept. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the actual schrodinger cat idea was actually talking about reality and ?quantum physics?, and explains the idea that the REAL WORLD actually works that way. The thing is, we are the characters and physics the DM, so noone notices. I may be mistaken, but I think if people tried to play the system they might be happily surprised. It's like the difference between reading the treasure drop algorithms for a video game, and actually playing it. Or how a Magic card can read unimpressive but turn out awesome in play.

 

[the Jester]

The thing is, for me, Treasure Types just didn't work or make much sense. Yeah, individual treasure was nice, but I could never make heads or tales of the rationales for the rest.

Well done treasure types, with good dm adjudication, can fit right in with the method you describe for allocating treasure; you just have to be willing to convert some of the value to trade goods or the like (in fact, I use something quite similar, though I loved using it with treasure types). You just have to design the treasure types to represent the ways the monsters get their loot- in fact, the 1e DMG discusses how most of a monster's treasure might be in the form of goods and gear.

In one 2e campaign I played in, we played monsters. One player- playing a pseudodragon or something- was playing a monster that had treasure type Q, so he always played up his fondness for gems.

I do agree that many of the treasure types didn't seem to really have much rationale behind them. It might be better to give monsters a "treasure" entry that describes whether they collect treasure at all, what they prefer (gear, gems, coins, paper products) and how much they tend to have ("goblins tend to have little treasure, generally amounting to a handful of sp and cp each and a group hoard worth 1 to 4 gp per goblin in the tribe").

 

[LostSoul]

But if a character did not get that "good loot" that loot never existed. The challenges and payoffs changing around the actions and activities of the player characters are not indicative of the game world itself somehow changing. The dragon's hoard didn't "physically" change inside the game world when the characters leveled up, it is and always was what it is when the players find it.

That quantum state is not something observable from a character's eye view. The cat is neither dead, nor alive, until someone opens up the box to see.

Player: So we made up some guys, what's there to do around here?
DM: Goblins in the forest, a dungeon full of spiders, rumours of a dragon in the mountains, and an ogre fort in the hills.
Player: Hmm... I can't decide. Any rumours about magic items they might have? If one of those places holds a nice magic sword I'll head there first.
DM: ...

 

[Truename]

Player: So we made up some guys, what's there to do around here?
DM: Goblins in the forest, a dungeon full of spiders, rumours of a dragon in the mountains, and an ogre fort in the hills.
Player: Hmm... I can't decide. Any rumours about magic items they might have? If one of those places holds a nice magic sword I'll head there first.
DM: ...

Why didn't the DM roll the treasure when he created the encounters? If he's prepared enough to know there's an ogre fort in the hills, he's prepared enough to roll (or simply choose!) its loot. It's not like the rules say you roll after the encounter is done.

That's the problem with this whole "Schrodinger's Loot" argument. The DM opens the box, not the players, and he decides when to open it.

Let me demonstrate:
- The goblins in the forest are easy. I'm going to roll on the "easy" chart (before we play).
- The dungeon with spiders is average but it's been picked over. There's only one magic item, hidden well away. I'm going to roll on the "average" chart and give the extra magic items to the dragon.
- The ogre fort is "tough," but I want the dragon's treasure to really shine, so I'm going put half the ogres' magic items in the dragon's hoard.
- I'm also going to flat-out ignore the tables and put some arrows of dragon slaying on the body of a dead adventurer near the dragon's lair, and also scatter some rumors about a hero who bragged about his "secret weapon" against dragons.

The rules don't say to switch off your brain and follow the tables like an automaton. They clearly say the exact opposite.