Schroedinger's Wounding (Forked Thread: Disappointed in 4e)

[Scribble]

Sure its possible that all living creatures heal super fast and recover all their wounds overnight. This is a perfectly valid parameter change from our real world to want to play in. The difference in this case is that all players are forced to play in this super healing world while not everyone is required to play purple antenna humans that eat out of giant nostrils. Most other fantasy aspects of the game are easy to change out if it goes against the type of fantasy they want to play. It is easy to remove Elves, or Dwarves, or Fireballs, it is allot harder to throw out super healing with this ruleset.

Slow the rate of Healing Surge recovery, and you slow the rate at which wounds are ultimately healed.

The rules already make use of this concept with things like disease, starvation, and inhospitable places.

If you want lingering wounds, Healing Surge penalties seem to be the way to go.

 

[Lacyon]

It is easy to remove Elves, or Dwarves, or Fireballs, it is allot harder to throw out super healing with this ruleset.

It really isn't.

Seriously, even if you accept (which I don't) that hp recovery has to represent healing of wounds, it's a matter of:

1) making Second Wind daily instead of encounter (if you want, you can remove the standard action entirely and have it only activated by heal checks).
2) removing the Warlord class
3) removing the sentence in the Short Rest description that says you can spend healing surges to regain hp
4) removing the sentence in the Extended Rest description that says you regain all hp

Done. Parties without a Cleric will have to spend a small fortune on magic items and potions to provide their healing, or else have to take frequent extended rests to maintain their fighting ability, but that's nothing new to D&D.

I'd put in a 5) about maybe throwing a bone to the PCs to make up for the loss of second wind, but I suspect 90% of people who'd bother with these changes would see the increased lethality as a feature, rather than a bug.

 

[Derren]

What you're ignoring is the healing surge.

In 4e healing suges have been added as an element that works in tandem with hit points.

When you take a hit, and you get a healing word, you still have to spend a healing surge. This means you're down a healing surge, and are no longer at 100%

You're simply able to push on through whatever injuries you have.

There's no waiting or retconning involved. Describe the injury all you want.

That doesn't change anything.
A character is in the danger of dying and after someone shouts at him he isn't any more. Or maybe he just recovers on his own within seconds. Or someone heals him with magic.
That he looses a healing surge for this recovery (which refill every day) doesn't change that you still can't be certain of why this character has been dying as you have to wait to see how he is healed.

And this is something that really bugs me in these threads. When someone tries to dismiss what you're saying (which is based on the actual rules of the game) by devolving down to "Oh well you must just have low standards..."

Bull.

Be so kind and point out where I used the word "low".

 

[Raven Crowking]

That doesn't change anything.
A character is in teh danger of dying and after someone shouts at him he isn't anymore. Or maybe he just recovers on his own within seconds.
That he looses a healing surge for this rather miracelously recovery (which refill every day) doesn't change that you still can't be certain of why this character has been dying as when you have to wait to see how he is healed.

I have come to realize that there will never be an answer to this, but there will be many statements that you are ignoring rules that cannot be quoted, and that you are playing the game wrong despite insta-healing being clearly what was intended by the 4e designers.

The "discussion" is so recursive that you could use a program to cut & paste bits of text from previous posts, on both sides, and it would continue on into infinity, without this point ever being addressed. Unless, of course, you are engaged in episodic play, where you can disjoin the game mechanics from the narrative without any problem, and the mechanics might really rock.

So, if you look at 4e as a game that really promotes/is geared toward episodic play, then one can see how, to someone engaged in episodic play, S's Wounding doesn't appear to be a "real" problem. It could simply be that 4e and sandbox play don't mix very well.

OTOH, I understand that there is a new article you can pay to see on the WotC website, explaining how looking at the RAW like this is simply wrong.


RC

 

[Scribble]

That doesn't change anything.
A character is in teh danger of dying and after someone shouts at him he isn't anymore. Or maybe he just recovers on his own within seconds.

Sure it does. He's 1 less healing surge capable of not dying.

That he looses a healing surge for this rather miracelously recovery (which refill every day) doesn't change that you still can't be certain of why this character has been dying as when you have to wait to see how he is healed.

And why not? Why do you have to wait and see how he's healed to determine how he was damaged? The healing changes nothing that happened previously.

You get hit by an axe. You go down, almost dead. Someone "shouts at you." You push past the pain, clear the fog out of your head, and get back into the fight. You're now down 1 healing surge, which shows you are injured. You are not at 100% Take too many hits with an axe, and no amount of "shouting" will get you back up. You are dead.

What's different now is that even magic healing cannot fix you to 100% at all times. But this is not schroedingers wounding.

In addition to that, long term healing is now not very long term. Overnight is really quick, I agree. But D&D has always seemed to have really quick healing times, they just heightened it. Modify to taste.

Be so kind and point out where I used the word "low".

Perhaps I misunderstood your words. Please be so kind as to explain it? Perhaps you meant my standards were higher? I can live with that.

 

[Scribble]

I have come to realize that there will never be an answer to this, but there will be many statements that you are ignoring rules that cannot be quoted, and that you are playing the game wrong despite insta-healing being clearly what was intended by the 4e designers.

Healing surges can't be quoted?

This argument is akin to saying someone having an AC of 28 is bad because I can't roll that number on a d20... it ignores BAB, Stat bonuses, weapon bonuses, etc...

You can't ignore one element of the rules (healing surges) to promote how another element is broken. The two are part of a whole.

 

[Raven Crowking]

In addition to that, long term healing is now not very long term. Overnight is really quick, I agree. But D&D has always seemed to have really quick healing times, they just heightened it. Modify to taste.

If healing surges are supposed to be taken as the measure of wounded/not wounded, then is the character not wounded until he takes the surge? Is the damage transfered from hit points to surge? (I could buy that as a good working house rule, but I don't recall that in the books...is there a page number?)

But almost-dead-to-perfect-tomorrow is still a problem.


RC

 

[Scribble]

If healing surges are supposed to be taken as the measure of wounded/not wounded, then is the character not wounded until he takes the surge?

He's wounded when he takes the hit, just like always. He's the wobbly fighter that gets back on his feat despite being pummeled.

The healing surge use means at that moment he's able to push past his injury and get back on his feet. There are only so many tiems he can do that though.

Is the damage transfered from hit points to surge? (I could buy that as a good working house rule, but I don't recall that in the books...is there a page number?)

I'm not sure what you mean by transferred? It's just a way of keeping track of things. You might be in decent enough shape for the current battle, but the long term effects are adding up. It's not really a house rule thing. it's just how the system works.

(Long term as in between extended rests... Although if you reduce the rate of HS return you can extend the long term to multiple days if you want. That part would be a house rule.)

But almost-dead-to-perfect-tomorrow is still a problem.

I take no issue with people having a problem with the speed of overnight healing. I can (and have) offered some ideas to fix it, but it's a personal preference thing, so whatever floats yer boat.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But almost-dead-to-perfect-tomorrow is still a problem.
RC

It is probably a... what, a two to four times as big as a problem in, say 3E. But is it fundamentally that different? The magnitude is still the same.
The problem is healing is awfully fast.

I was actually surprised that healing surges recovered fully after each day, but I prefer it for gameplay reasons. "Fixing" it (and yes, I am talking house rules here) would probably require for slower healing surge regeneration rate. (1/5th of your max healing surges per day, rounded down to a minimum of 1?)

 

[Herremann the Wise]

It is probably a... what, a two to four times as big as a problem in, say 3E. But is it fundamentally that different? The magnitude is still the same.
The problem is healing is awfully fast.

True. However, in 3.x with clerics and curing wands a plenty, most healing was magical so the speed of natural healing in the gameworld never seemed to "affect" the story or it's believability (presuming of course that having healers who can heal wounds at a touch, repeatedly, after every combat is "normal" or believable). In 4E, natural healing is the predominant method and so the speed (which has been increased from 3.x) is doubly noticed. Just saying... again.

I was actually surprised that healing surges recovered fully after each day, but I prefer it for gameplay reasons. "Fixing" it (and yes, I am talking house rules here) would probably require for slower healing surge regeneration rate. (1/5th of your max healing surges per day, rounded down to a minimum of 1?)

I suppose it comes down to what's "fun" or "unfun" for the majority. The mechanic works well enough provided you get over the rapidity-of-healing hurdle (or ignore it) - which as time goes on is becoming slightly easier and easier to do.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise