Science Fiction vs. Science Fantasy

[tomBitonti]

A big issue with Star Wars being any kind of science fiction is that the story is rather entirely separable from the trappings. Compounding the issue is the core resolution point of the movie, where faith in the force provides the final necessary impetus to overcome evil. Here, the force is a mystical power beyond reason and which requires faith to unleash fully. That seems roundly unscientific.

As an aside, I think that is one of the big draws of the movie, along with a huge dose of simple fun.

Thx!

TomB

Edit: Although, I don't think picking on Star Wars is fair. Much more interesting would be to look at, say, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, or Ringworld, or 1984, or The Dispossessed, or, if we are to look at movies, The Fountain, or The Andromeda Strain, or Solaris. (To pick a few which are personally specific, but otherwise somewhat random.)

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Meanwhile, there's a strong argument that Doctor Who is really fantasy - replace "Time lords" with "Sidhe lords" and you might have a very similar story. Near human, nigh immortal, is better than a human at just about everything, but is nigh begging for contact/input from humans. His companions are essentially variations on Tam Lin and Thomas the Rhymer. Instead of sweeping people up in a wild hunt, he does so in a big blue box, into a world where time as they knew it has little meaning, and passes strangely...

So, no, I don't think the "what is it to be human" theme is at all the differentiator.

But, that's the thing. If you rewrote Doctor Who as fantasy, the themes would be totally different. No more dwelling on the Doctor trying to maintain his humanity (and what that actually means) in the face of incredible power. Instead, he's a wand wielding wizard out to stop the evils of the universe from doing bad things. The focus stops being about the Doctor's humanity and becomes more about the action of the story.

Or, to put it another way, if you rewrite Doctor Who as fantasy, it becomes a morality tale. The Doctor helping people by using his magic powers. As SF, it's about The Doctor, not really about what he does.

 

[Hussar]

A big issue with Star Wars being any kind of science fiction is that the story is rather entirely separable from the trappings. Compounding the issue is the core resolution point of the movie, where faith in the force provides the final necessary impetus to overcome evil. Here, the force is a mystical power beyond reason and which requires faith to unleash fully. That seems roundly unscientific.

As an aside, I think that is one of the big draws of the movie, along with a huge dose of simple fun.

Thx!

TomB

Edit: Although, I don't think picking on Star Wars is fair. Much more interesting would be to look at, say, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, or Ringworld, or 1984, or The Dispossessed, or, if we are to look at movies, The Fountain, or The Andromeda Strain, or Solaris. (To pick a few which are personally specific, but otherwise somewhat random.)

I totally agree with this. And totally agree that it is one of the big draws of the movie.

But, it also provides very good examples of the differences in theme, at least for me. Look at R2D2. Now, in Star Wars, he's (it's?) a droid who goes around solving problems. He's basically a Deus Ex Machina magical handwave. Need past those blast doors? R2D2 opens them for you. Need to hide the Death Star Plans? R2D2 does it for you.

But, nothing in the movies really deals with what R2D2 actually is. And, what he is is an intelligent machine whose creators are so horrific that they don't even let their slave creation have a voice. R2D2 is obviously intelligent and certainly appears to be self-aware. But, beyond very basic elements, he cannot ever voice an opinion to anyone other than other slaves. He's a slave with his tongue cut out.

But, that whole concept is completely swept under the carpet because this isn't what the movie is about. He's Tinkerbell. His function in the movies is pretty much exactly like a Good Fairy. But, like Tinkerbell, he's never allowed to have any motivations beyond what his slave masters dictate to him.

For an SF approach to R2D2, look at Blade Runner. C3P0 gets satirized as Marvin The Paranoid Android in The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. There is an excellent episode of Star Trek TNG where Data is put on trial to determine if he is, in fact, a sentient being with rights. In Star Wars, despite the Republic apparently fighting for freedom against tyranny, no one has the slightest problem enslaving sentient droids and treating them as objects.

 

[GSHamster]

But, that's the thing. If you rewrote Doctor Who as fantasy, the themes would be totally different. No more dwelling on the Doctor trying to maintain his humanity (and what that actually means) in the face of incredible power. Instead, he's a wand wielding wizard out to stop the evils of the universe from doing bad things. The focus stops being about the Doctor's humanity and becomes more about the action of the story.

Or, to put it another way, if you rewrite Doctor Who as fantasy, it becomes a morality tale. The Doctor helping people by using his magic powers. As SF, it's about The Doctor, not really about what he does.

But many vampire and werewolf stories are about trying to stay human, even though you are a monster. Are you saying that all those stories are SF, rather than fantasy?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But, nothing in the movies really deals with what R2D2 actually is. And, what he is is an intelligent machine whose creators are so horrific that they don't even let their slave creation have a voice. R2D2 is obviously intelligent and certainly appears to be self-aware. But, beyond very basic elements, he cannot ever voice an opinion to anyone other than other slaves. He's a slave with his tongue cut out.

Just because we (the audience) don't speak machine or lack the auditory acuity to understand his trills & beeps doesn't make him a tongueless slave. Others seem to understand him just fine.

 

[Tonguez]

But many vampire and werewolf stories are about trying to stay human, even though you are a monster. Are you saying that all those stories are SF, rather than fantasy?

yes

 

[MarkB]

But, that's the thing. If you rewrote Doctor Who as fantasy, the themes would be totally different. No more dwelling on the Doctor trying to maintain his humanity (and what that actually means) in the face of incredible power.

I really don't see that as anywhere near the difference between SF and fantasy. Aside from the already-mentioned werewolf and vampire stories, many fantasy stories deal with themes of this nature. It's one of the central themes of The Lord of the Rings, and that's pretty much a definitive example of fantasy.

 

[tomBitonti]

But, nothing in the movies really deals with what R2D2 actually is. And, what he is is an intelligent machine whose creators are so horrific that they don't even let their slave creation have a voice. R2D2 is obviously intelligent and certainly appears to be self-aware. But, beyond very basic elements, he cannot ever voice an opinion to anyone other than other slaves. He's a slave with his tongue cut out.

It is strange that R2D2 can't talk. Maybe, human language is too foreign to how he is wired?

Still, the robots do seem to be self aware, many of them at least, and the story has no problem with their enslavement.

Worse, in my mind, Yoda seemed to have no trouble commanding clone soldiers -- beings created to fight and die for others. Was he making do with a bad situation (the clones already existed, and might not have any other use), or is the story sidestepping a moral issue?

The robot self awareness, at least, seems quite thin. The same cannot be said for the clone soldiers.

Thx!

TomB

 

[Tonguez]

I really don't see that as anywhere near the difference between SF and fantasy. Aside from the already-mentioned werewolf and vampire stories, many fantasy stories deal with themes of this nature. It's one of the central themes of The Lord of the Rings, and that's pretty much a definitive example of fantasy.

The werewolf and vampire stories mentioned aren't fantasy they are gothic romance using monsters as protagonist. Frankenstein and Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde were also gothic romance that qualify as Sci-Fi.

and LoTR doesnt have a humanity theme, it has a resisting the grip of evil theme which fits with fantasy and can equally be seen in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

but the Dr Who as fantasy discussion is veering into the realm of basic archetypes and how they are portrayed in various genre. Afterall the Doctor as Mentor is comparable to Merlin and also Obiwan. But he is also Warrior, Shapeshifter and even Trickster.

 

[tomBitonti]

But, that's the thing. If you rewrote Doctor Who as fantasy, the themes would be totally different. No more dwelling on the Doctor trying to maintain his humanity (and what that actually means) in the face of incredible power. Instead, he's a wand wielding wizard out to stop the evils of the universe from doing bad things. The focus stops being about the Doctor's humanity and becomes more about the action of the story.

Or, to put it another way, if you rewrite Doctor Who as fantasy, it becomes a morality tale. The Doctor helping people by using his magic powers. As SF, it's about The Doctor, not really about what he does.

It's curious. I'm thinking that retelling Dr Who through fantasy would be possible, but the retelling does seem harder through fantasy than through science fiction. The scale is just so large (all of time and space, parallel universes, rewriting history; the time war) that it slips out of fantasy frameworks. Has science fiction eclipsed fantasy in its breadth of scope?

Thx!

TomB