Science question for the brainy among us

[F5]

But in our pseudo-medieval fantasy setting, how would you define a mass of gas

In a pseudo-medieval mindset, the easiest way to concieve of a "mass of gas" would be a breath. Maybe smoke, but having "the breath of a god" or somesuch as a requirement for your unbreakable sphere experiment is more evocative and cool than 'light a candle".

and then move those shrunken molecules into a particular space like our sphere?

Exhale, Reduce, Teleport?

 

[Pyruhtkat]

Let's say you've got a small metal sphere with a diameter of about one inch or so. Something you can hold in your hand. It's got a hole in it that we'll use in just a moment, but that will be sealed again so that the surface is solid and perfectly seamless.

Now we take a large volume of water -- a gallon or so? -- and we use magic to temporarily reduce it so that we can pour it into ... oh, let's say that sphere we prepared earlier.

Then quickly using a second spell, we seal the shrunkified liquid in the metal sphere so that (as I suggested before) it has no seal. Each spot on the sphere is a consistant thickness and resiliency (i.e. no implied weak points or cracks). After the spell, the sphere should not retain any magical properties.

Quick recap: magically miniaturized volume of liquid sealed in a (non-magical) metal sphere.

Our final step is to cancel the shrinking spell cast on the water.

What will the effect be?

This is exzaktly, and i mean exzaktly, how i feel when i try to watch them lord of the things movies wgile drinkin' that big ol' soda they sell at the theater.

And i know what happens to me! fortchunately i can tie my coat around my waist and no one notisses.

 

[argo]

Hmmmm.....

Dust of Dryness (cost: 850 gp) + metal sphere = fantasy frag grenade?

Me likey. Only problem is you gotta be REALLY careful about droping it by accident.

 

[Enkhidu]

I'd say you're falling into the trap of mixing science and magic - down that way lies madness; madness I say!

Anyhoo, using some D&D reasoning, when dealing with magics that shrink or reduce something, all of the excess has to go somewhere - likely to remote areas of the Deep Ethereal or some long lost corner of the Astral. So when the liquid expands and has no where else to go, it's shunted to the Ethereal (just as if someone dimensioned door into a solid object).

Dangit, Nifft beat me to it!

 

[BVB]

OK, but let's swing the pendulum back in the other direction. Because we're running the risk of applying logic (i.e. the liquid simply can't come back to full size) to solve an problem created by the illogic of magic.

If, instead of allowing an extra-dimensional out, we declare that the water MUST attain its normal size in this plane of existence ... Well, then we're back to the intent of the original question again.

 

[Bastoche]

Using magic to compress the water imply that the question doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It's an illposed problem.

Since it's physically impossible to confine water in such a small space, the resulting phenomenon is not a thing a science but purely a science-fiction thing.

It couldn't be verify by any physical means, therefore the answer to the question wouldn't anything but pure scienceless speculation.

Now if you'd use a pressurable cavity and try to compress the water, at a high enough pressure, you would reach a critical point (water to gas is a first order transition) and you could NOT differentiate water from gas, because if you raise the temperature, the gas state would be so conpressed, it's density would be the same as the water's.

If a clever player wants to use theses tactics, hinder roleplaying XP penalities for using modern notions of physics and make out whatever effects better suits you imagination.

The energy might be of the order of the pressure times the volume of the sphere. And the pressure would be incommensurate, in the sense of uncomputable (in other words unphysical)

would get packed together in a super-solid state.

This doesn't make any sense. Heisenberg boys, Heisenberg...

gets packed into some kind of super-ice, harder than diamond, and unnaturally heavy.

This makes even less sense. If the water (or any other material) is confined in too small a space, quantum fluctuations will make anything melt. It's an entropy/energy dissipation thing à la Pomeranchuck effect.

It could break the electron shells of the water molecules and make neutron star material.

This doesn't make any sense at all. Electrons and neutrons are two different species of "creatures" made from the same subparticles. Neutron stars are made of neutron not electrons with a broken shell (?!?!).

re gas instead of liquid: So if the naysayers among us insist water can't be compressed (once de-magicked in the sphere), let's perform the experiment with a gas instead. Superheated plasma results, right?

Doesn't work, since you would cross the crossover point (critical point) after which gas isn't comrepssible anymore. Plasma is ion (electrons or ionized atoms, it has NOTHING to do with highly compressed gas).

Mixing magic with very very bad scientific "knowledge" only makes very very very bad science ficition.

Sorry for the rant, but the physicist in me just hate to see that kind of "brainy" discussion

Go magic or go science but don't mix them together!

 

[Bastoche]

OK, but let's swing the pendulum back in the other direction. Because we're running the risk of applying logic (i.e. the liquid simply can't come back to full size) to solve an problem created by the illogic of magic.

If, instead of allowing an extra-dimensional out, we declare that the water MUST attain its normal size in this plane of existence ... Well, then we're back to the intent of the original question again.

Which doesn't make anymore sense

 

[Wicht]

Go magic or go science but don't mix them together!

Now where's the fun in that?

 

[Bastoche]

Now where's the fun in that?

If you mix them together, you don't have "science" anymore. So in that sense it's magic only. No arguments will be logical in such a mindset. It's an "up to the DM" question. And any answer would be as false, right and/or arbitrary (all at the same time) as any other. You don't need "brain" to answer such a question, only imagination.

 

[orbitalfreak]

I say "Grenade weapon," deals 5d6 [Force] damage on impact, splashed for 1d6[Force]. After all, we're talking about a 3rd level spell, so it's not outside its power bounds. Non-scaling damage, because the spell is also utilitarian, in addition to damage-dealing (at least, if you allow exploding water bombs to work).