Scott Rouse: of Interesting Note

[Jemal]

Probably because the games aren't being played "by-the-book" correctly. Not to say there's something wrong with them, just that I doubt it's completely accurate or anything more than a rough estimation of the tabletop gaming experience.



You play the game "correctly" in that you and your group have fun. No one can dispute it if you enjoy it. But it's impossible to follow the letter of the rules of the d20 System without minis and a battlemat. Absolutely impossible.

If you're not using minis and a battlemat, you're not following WotC's plan for the game. Look at their recent modules, with the Delve Format's focus on skirmish battles. If you were to take away the encounter write-ups, you'd have very little left.

I'm not trying to bash anybody, so please no one take it that way. If you can make it work with narrative and no minis or battlemats, then the blessings of Cuthbert be with you.

Retreater

I don't recall ever reading a rule that stated you require mini's....

Besides, most people with high school math should be able to figure it out fairly easy. The only time you even have to do equations is when you're dealing with area of effect during flying encounters (And how does the battlemat help you with Aerial encounters, anyways?)

(Keeping in mind, my RL group is very tactical, so Distance/placement are very important factors, and we've rarely had any problems knowing exactly where we are relative to other PC's/NPC's.)

 

[Odhanan]

You play the game "correctly" in that you and your group have fun. No one can dispute it if you enjoy it. But it's impossible to follow the letter of the rules of the d20 System without minis and a battlemat. Absolutely impossible.

If you're not using minis and a battlemat, you're not following WotC's plan for the game. Look at their recent modules, with the Delve Format's focus on skirmish battles. If you were to take away the encounter write-ups, you'd have very little left.

I'm not trying to bash anybody, so please no one take it that way. If you can make it work with narrative and no minis or battlemats, then the blessings of Cuthbert be with you.

Thanks, Retreater, but your assumption is still incorrect. You can adjudicate movement ratios, maneuvers, attacks of opportunity, flanking etc. by way of verbal descriptions instead of a strict use of miniatures. The use of miniatures facilitates one thing: the understanding of positions and maneuvering by using a shared visual reference. If everybody instead is clear on verbal descriptions, it can replace visual clues.

 

[Crothian]

You play the game "correctly" in that you and your group have fun. No one can dispute it if you enjoy it. But it's impossible to follow the letter of the rules of the d20 System without minis and a battlemat. Absolutely impossible.

Let me try this again: No it isn't. You're not at my gaming table so telling me I'm not playing by the letter of the rules is actually impossible for you to know. You might not understand how certain rules can be followed without minis. If that is the case please just ask how I deal with those rules without the use of minis.

If you're not using minis and a battlemat, you're not following WotC's plan for the game. Look at their recent modules, with the Delve Format's focus on skirmish battles. If you were to take away the encounter write-ups, you'd have very little left.

I prefer dungeon crawl classics to the Wizards modules so I have no ran any of these new modules you speak of. And I don't really care what their plan for the game is. I run their game and use their rules. But I'm not a fan of minis and luckily I don't need them for this game.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Thanks, Retreater, but your assumption is still incorrect. You can adjudicate movement ratios, maneuvers, attacks of opportunity, flanking etc. by way of verbal descriptions instead of a strict use of miniatures. The use of miniatures facilitates one thing: the understanding of positions and maneuvering by using a shared visual reference. If everybody instead is clear on verbal descriptions, it can replace visual clues.

Miniatures often make the game easier, but they're certainly not required.

We don't typically bother with them anymore, as the board's a pain to put out, and we're lazy.

Brad

 

[Mercule]

Probably because the games aren't being played "by-the-book" correctly. Not to say there's something wrong with them, just that I doubt it's completely accurate or anything more than a rough estimation of the tabletop gaming experience.

Incorrect, sir. The game works just fine w/o minis (or counters, etc.). There is nothing in the rules that prohibits or discourages purely desciptive combats.

Instead, 3.x provides a mechanism for disambiguation of the lay of the land to an extent that excedes previous editions. I've played in many different groups and the biggest arguments were always over GM fiat of positioning. I haven't seen one of those in ages.

I have no desire to replace my weekly RP session with a weekly minis game, but I do appreciate the use of visual representations of important tactical situations.

 

[Mercule]

Yah, I wouldn't worry. We use Tabletop and Pen & Paper interchangeably around the office. Of course, since I work on DDM, I'd like to see the minis game grow, but I have no delusions that it'll take over D&D as we know it any time soon. Long live the RPG!

Thanks for popping in. It's nice to here a knowledgible voice on the matter.

 

[Alnag]

The DM adjudicates the positions of the player's characters according to the descriptions of their actions. If the players want to flank, dodge adversaries and make particular moves, they describe them instead of moving a mini. Same thing for attacks of opportunity.

Without any representation whatsoever that must be really tough to do, especially in mass combat situation. I don't use much mins either, but we still use dices, small boxes or tokens for representation of the situation. We do not need the squre battle mat but still, it really helps me to build my imagination on something...

I wonder how you manage that, because I would not be able to do that. You have my admiration!

 

[Razz]

You don't NEED minis to play D&D.

A marker and a washable board is all you need and is a hell of a lot cheaper way of playing. All the more money to save so your can buy those "wish list" D&D books you're too broke to buy cause you keep wasting money on minis.

Heck, I don't use washable boards either. I use Campaign Cartographer with the added additions of Dungeon Designer and City Designer. That's all you really need.

Sure, you'll need to play D&D where your desktop PC is or bring your laptop around. If those are a problem, you can go back

But, seriously, I will not buy tons and tons of minis that's just going to take up tons of space and eat up my bank account completely dry. I already have a bunch of D&D books and novels that do that. As long as you can maneuver the battles tactifully and the players have a good imagination, then it's fine.

Good example, those minis ads with the turkey as the red dragon? Yeah, that'd be me.

 

[Odhanan]

Without any representation whatsoever that must be really tough to do, especially in mass combat situation. I don't use much mins either, but we still use dices, small boxes or tokens for representation of the situation. We do not need the squre battle mat but still, it really helps me to build my imagination on something...

I wonder how you manage that, because I would not be able to do that. You have my admiration!

Well, in all honesty the first time I tried this out I had my doubts, particularly because the players at our game table are all newbies who've been introduced to the game with minis and Dwarven Forge, basically.

When I ran the first game sessions without minis whatsoever, they did not include combat. Then, when the players got used to it (after two, three sessions sandwiched between classic dungeon crawls maybe) I ran my first combat without miniatures, and it went absolutely fine! It's just different in the approach. I thought I would have at least some issue popping up at some point because of the players not being used to it (not the actual rules) but no issue popped up whatsoever.

 

[Alnag]

Reading Odhanan and others the actual question is less about mins and more about visual aid in general. Do you need some visual representation of combat or is you imagionation sufficient enought.

Strange is, that in my first gaming sessions (not DnD but similar local product) we did not use miniatures or any other visual aids (there were none available). And it worked. It worked pretty smoothly till the game introduce "advanced combat system" which did not needed use of miniatures, but it was easier with them to manage it. Since than I was too lazy to return to gaming without visual aid. (I don't use mins much, although I have few...]