Scythe Wielder - Feats

[IanB]

I think you might want to note, though, that as the chance to hit an opponent gets smaller, the scythe becomes relatively more attractive. At an extreme, when you only hit on a 20 the weapons have effectively the same threat range and thus the scythe has a big advantage, no?

 

[Dreeble]

Thanks

Mike:

Thanks much. I was too into my little program and not paying all that much attention to your 1.10 - 1.20 - 1.30 - 1.45 thingy. I'll look at that some more. However, unless I've got a bug somewhere, I still don't like Scythes I think. Probably a bug, though. Does anybody have a link to Spikey's damage calculator? I want to try that out now.

When comparing Scythes to Great Swords (or just doing expected damage comparison's in general) is it better to assume full attacks or standard attacks? I've mostly been looking at full attacks. Still, as Ian points out, the less accurate later iterative attacks should favor the Scythe. Hmm.

Take care,
Dreeble

 

[Mike Sullivan]

I think you might want to note, though, that as the chance to hit an opponent gets smaller, the scythe becomes relatively more attractive. At an extreme, when you only hit on a 20 the weapons have effectively the same threat range and thus the scythe has a big advantage, no?

Yes and no. Let's actually take the case where you've got an improved crit, keen scythe-wielder vs. an improved crit, keen greatsword-wielder. Now, suppose you hit on an 18+.

In that case, the greatsword wielder has an effective 18-20/x2 crit range (or a 1.15 multiplier), while the scimitar still has a 18-20/x4 crit range (or a 1.45 multiplier).

In that case, our equation looks like this:

1.45(5 + z) > 1.15(7 + z)
7.25 + 1.45z > 8.05 + 1.15z
.3z > .8
z > 2.6666...

So if your damage bonus is a relatively trivial 3 or higher, in that fairly specialized case, scythe is a better choice than greatsword.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Re: Thanks

When comparing Scythes to Great Swords (or just doing expected damage comparison's in general) is it better to assume full attacks or standard attacks? I've mostly been looking at full attacks. Still, as Ian points out, the less accurate later iterative attacks should favor the Scythe. Hmm.

Opinions vary. Probably, you should do both, and just do your best to internalize both numbers -- certainly, in most games, both full and standard attacks will come up.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

You could go with the FR heavy weapon addon. It makes a weapon heavier than normal, and increases it's damage, so it would be a 2D6 scythe. It would be pretty easy to say that the extra weight comes from a metal haft. That would help vs sunder.

Then there is always monkey grip, so you could use a shield at the same time, thou this lessens the effectiveness of Power Attack. With a x4 crit, I'd stick two handed.

Expertise and a Defending weapon are good ways of keeping up the AC, aswell as Greater Expertise and Greater Defending(?) later on. Also, there is a feat that allows you to ad 2x STR mod to a two handed weapon. I wouldn't normally take it, but for a x4 crit, it might be worth it.

If you are looking fo PrC's, the frenzied Beserker(?) eventually got a Power Attack that traded damage for penalties 2 to 1. I don't know how they are going to handle this in 3.5, but if it went to 3 to 1, it could be very ugly.

Side note, could a Frenzied Berserker be the ultimate dual weapon fighter?

 

[Darklone]

Actually, I've seen a lot of paladins with Scythe... since you don't need many feats to use them properly (Smite Evil as class ability, Power Critical and Improved Critical as feats).

Overall, if you fight many high AC monsters, the scythes crit range proves to be better than the falchions, since many "threats" with the falchion may not hit at all...

 

[IanB]

The silliness of a monkey gripped scythe is precisely why that feat will never see the light of day in my campain.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

I am absolutely baffled as to why anyone would think that Monkey Grip is a good feat.

You could spend that feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword, and your average damage is one lower than a Greataxe, 1.5 lower than a Greatsword. And does anyone honestly think that trading off 2 points to hit for one to 1.5 points of damage is a good idea?

EDIT: The reason that two-handed weapons are such pros and dishing out the deep hurting has a lot less to do with their base weapon damages, and a lot more to do with the * 1.5 str bonus, anyhow.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

It's not good, but some might like the style. Its very anime like. Me I love big swords but I expect them to be wielded two handed. After FF7 big swords is the only way to go for me, that was even back in 2e when they sucked.

 

[Lotus]

If crit range/multiplier is:

20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.05
20/x3 or 19-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.10
20/x4 or 18-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.15
19-20/x3 or 17-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.20
18-20/x3, 19-20/x4, or 15-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.30
18-20/x4 or 12-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.45

Great shortcut. With that chart, the quickie formula would be:

((21 * number of attacks) - (sum of rolls needed to hit)) * average damage * crit factor / 20

For example, 2d6+12 19-20/x4, needing rolls of 5, 10, 15 to hit: (63 - 30) * 17 * 1.3 / 20 = 36.465.

And if you have energy enchantments it's just a little more complex:

((21 * number of attacks) - (sum of rolls needed to hit)) * avg normal dmg * (1 + ((crit factor-1) * avg crit dmg / avg normal dmg)) / 20

For example, give that weapon above a 1d6 flaming enchantment and you have:

(63-30) * 20.5 * (1 + (.3 * 17 / 20.5)) / 20 = 42.24.

Or flaming burst (why, God, why?):

(63-30) * 20.5 * (1 + (.3 * 22.5 / 20.5)) / 20 = 44.9625.

Or to remind everyone why burst sucks, trade it for another +1:

(63-27) * 21.5 * (1 + (.3 * 18 / 21.5)) / 20 = 48.42