Search and taking 20: the problem

[heirodule]

While I agree that the rules say you can take 20 on searches, and don't want this to turn intoa debate between those who argue about that rule, I was wondering if anyone saw a problem in the way the rule functions.

It makes searching for the trap a decision for the DM to either get you or not. No variability.

The DM knows what your max DC possible is. Maybe you could have some assists, but he can take those into account too.

So he decides what kind of search DC he wants for a trap, and in so doing is determing ahead of time if you'll find it or not. You can do DC 30? Then he picks DC 32 if he wants you to miss it. He can pick DC 20 if he wants you to get it. Which means that the PC doesn't get to "interact" with the world the GM is making on his own terms.

The only other way for the GM to provide some interaction with the PCs skills and choices is to place traps he know that the PC can find, but place them in less likely areas, or give clues to the placement that turn them into puzzles.

Or, turn every encounter including traps into some kind of time trial where takign 20 all the time would be detrimental. Those two solutions to the problem might be pretty good, but will get repetitious after awhile.

Would there really be much of a problem if we modified the search skill to say if you fail the role by more than 5 when looking for a trap you conclude falsely there certainly is no trap?

 

[JimAde]

I think the real problem is not that you can take 20, but that search is only a full round action. Six seconds is not a very long time to search a 5X5 area or a large object like a chest. I can barely search my sock drawer in that time and I'm pretty sure it's not trapped

If the base time were longer, the Take 20 time would get long enough that good role players would say "enough with the searching already!"

Or you could leave the base time the same, but rule that taking 10 doubles this time and taking 20 actually takes 5 minutes or 10 minutes instead of the 2 minutes it takes according to the rules. There's no rules justification for this, but I think it's reasonably realistic.

 

[TracerBullet42]

Isn't there already a rule that says taking 20 on a skill check makes it take longer? How much longer?

If you can make time an issue...sometimes taking 20 isn't an option. And that would help...

 

[ergeheilalt]

Isn't there already a rule that says taking 20 on a skill check makes it take longer? How much longer?

If you can make time an issue...sometimes taking 20 isn't an option. And that would help...

Exactly. When taking twenty, it take 20 times as long as it would to do a single action - with a chance of failure. Someone explained it as exausting every concievable possibility in you search. Effectively taking twenty is like rolling a 1, then a 2, then 3 ... all the way to 20.

Erge

 

[JimAde]

Right. But because the time on a regular Search check is only one round, taking 20 only takes 2 minutes. Not a very long time. So increasing the base time would increase the Take 20 time correspondingly.

 

[DarkMaster]

Right. But because the time on a regular Search check is only one round, taking 20 only takes 2 minutes. Not a very long time. So increasing the base time would increase the Take 20 time correspondingly.

Trust me two minute at every door and every 5x5 tile is enourmous.

 

[Artoomis]

Right. But because the time on a regular Search check is only one round, taking 20 only takes 2 minutes. Not a very long time. So increasing the base time would increase the Take 20 time correspondingly.

I am not a big fan of random stuff outside of inter-character interactions (combat, for one example), so I don't have too big a problem with basically auto-success with most searches.

Of course, time is a factor. A 30'x30' area takes 1 hour, 12 minutes to search. That much time is not always available.

I prefer, as a DM, to give clues to players about where to search. If they pick up on the clues and search in the right spot, good for them! Assuming they have a searcher in the party (good search check), they succeed. no problem - that's the reward for paying attention and solving the puzzle.

I prevent the problem of taking 20 ALL the time by using time - you cannot take the time to thoroughly search except when the whole place is secure. Constant searching is constantly interrupted by bad guys who catch you by surprise.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Take 10, take 20, it doesn't matter, if you have a DM who wants to be a rat bastard by setting the CR out of your reach, he can do so no matter what. If you have the luxury of time, you SHOULD be able to do a thorough search that would lead to you finding traps that are within your experience and ability to locate.

 

[dcollins]

While I agree that the rules say you can take 20 on searches, and don't want this to turn intoa debate between those who argue about that rule, I was wondering if anyone saw a problem in the way the rule functions.

It makes searching for the trap a decision for the DM to either get you or not. No variability.

I totally agree. We've run into this exact problem in our gaming group -- and Search Take 10's have a similar problem (which we recently house-ruled away).

The only apparent solution is to make the search time matter somehow. But that's downright difficult -- what do the players care if the PCs spend 1 round, minute, or hour at a boring task? I know plenty of players who would say, "so what, I take 3 hours searching the room, I'm allowed to do that."

A common response is "sometimes there isn't that much time [plot, prisoner, volcano, etc.]". But "sometimes" doesn't fix the Search-Take-20 problem which exists all the time. There must be a concrete in-game disadvantage to the choice to Take 20 Search -- for myself, I enforce rigorous Wandering Monster checks and even tell the players what the percentages are likely to be, so they can decide for themselves if it's worth the risk. Others may pick different strategies.

 

[Scion]

I think the real problem is not that you can take 20, but that search is only a full round action. Six seconds is not a very long time to search a 5X5 area or a large object like a chest.

It isnt a huge amount of time, hence the roll. You might see something, you might not.

If the base time were longer, the Take 20 time would get long enough that good role players would say "enough with the searching already!"

Highly disagree here. It takes 2 minutes, this is a long time in game but about the same amount of time rolling out of game. 'Good roleplayers' will say how their characters react. Some characters will like to be thorough while others may be impatient, impatient characters tend to die faster so as the game goes on it is 'more likely' to happen since the stupid ones are dead and the smart ones are checking to make sure that important things like doors, chests, and seldom used areas are not trapped.

Or you could leave the base time the same, but rule that taking 10 doubles this time and taking 20 actually takes 5 minutes or 10 minutes instead of the 2 minutes it takes according to the rules. There's no rules justification for this, but I think it's reasonably realistic.

No need to change anything here. Take 10 only works in certain cases, and is effectively the same as rolling the die. No need to double it.

2 minutes for a 5x5 section means that if there is any push for time 'at all' only the key areas will be searched that thoroughly. If there is no push for time then there is almost no reason what-so-ever not to do a good job. After all, if you have to get across a river you could either rush blindly ahead and swim as rapidly as possible (rolling your check, possibly at a penalty), you could take your time and get something floatable to help you (take a 10 option plus a possible bonus), or you could be very thorough and take no chances by building a raft. Building the raft again comes with two options, fast or slow. This is all very much like real life even. If you have the time to take then why not take it?

Again, a 'good roleplayer' will react as his character should. People who rush blindly ahead even when they have the time to take precautions die horrible deaths. So in the end all characters will learn some caution or are just incredibly lucky