Search skill useful for a rogue?

[Willtell]

I know it sounds like a dumb question but once the the mage has scrolls of detect secret doors whats the point in improving the search skill?.

The difficulty to detect traps scales with level which means the rogue is only going to find 10-20% of the traps he encounters. Would'nt the rogue be better of taking lightning reflexes, iron will, greater fortitude and other feats and skills that help him survive traps instead of increasing his chance to find them?.

Or using a wand of summon monster 1 to set off traps - it would cost only 750gp per dungeon crawl!. Or charming a prisoner into telling you were the traps are, then having the shakled prisoner talk 10ft ahead of you.

 

[Ma'varkith]

The difficulty to detect traps scales with level which means the rogue is only going to find 10-20% of the traps he encounters.

How did you come to this figure? I'm looking at the sample CR9-10 traps in Song and Silence and the Search DCs range from 16-34.

Assuming an average of 25 on the DC (the PHB says "20" for the dificulty of locating a simple trap, 21+ for a difficult trap, that only a Rogue can spot, and 25+ for magical traps), a 10th-level Rogue with max ranks and a reasonable (14) INT, your bonus to the Search roll is +15, which gives a 55% chance of spotting traps of that DC. Elves and Half-elves have an even easier time, as do Dwarves spotting traps built into stone.

Such Rogues can take 10 on their checks and spot most traps.

Also, Detect Secret Doors doesn't spot traps. The spell Find Traps lets a Cleric detect traps with a DC of 21+, but he still has to use his normal Search skill to do so. Since Search is cross-class for Clerics, he isn't likely to have a very good skill total.

 

[Willtell]

Re: Re: Search skill useful for a rogue?

How did you come to this figure? I'm looking at the sample CR9-10 traps in Song and Silence and the Search DCs range from 16-34.

Assuming an average of 25 on the DC (the PHB says "20" for the dificulty of locating a simple trap, 21+ for a difficult trap, that only a Rogue can spot, and 25+ for magical traps), a 10th-level Rogue with max ranks and a reasonable (14) INT, your bonus to the Search roll is +15, which gives a 55% chance of spotting traps of that DC. Elves and Half-elves have an even easier time, as do Dwarves spotting traps built into stone.

Such Rogues can take 10 on their checks and spot most traps.

Also, Detect Secret Doors doesn't spot traps. The spell Find Traps lets a Cleric detect traps with a DC of 21+, but he still has to use his normal Search skill to do so. Since Search is cross-class for Clerics, he isn't likely to have a very good skill total.

I know Detect Secret Doors does not detect traps, but once that spell is known the other main reason for continuing to improved the seach skill is gone. Perhaps my DM is unusal - dc's for traps at 1st lvl started out at around 20, and at 8th lvl are around 26. What were simple pit traps are now multiple dart traps, each treated with poison.

We also use the point buy creation method (28pts). Since rogues highest score is usually dex, you need a good strength to say only lightly encumbered, you need a good con (in part to resist poison) and a good wis for listen and spot, rogues with int mods are rare.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

My current rogue has a 14 str and a 10 int, and the biggest regret I have about the character is not swapping those scores during creation. A Heward's Handy Haversack gets rid of most encumbrance issues, and a rogue's sneak attack means that strength isn't very useful. There are never enough skill points, however.

I've been playing a rogue for the last year or so, (just made 12th level,) and let me tell you, search is a rogue's best friend. Wait until you start encountering traps that store Phantasmal Killer and Chain Lightning and you'll be grateful for every rank, my friend.

If your DM has a copy of Song and Silence you're in for even more fun. While the DCs go up slowly, the penalties for failing your search check get worse and worse.

My favorite trap from Song and Silence? The Crushing Room!

 

[HeavyG]

You need goggles of minute seeing, man.

 

[madriel]

Re: Re: Re: Search skill useful for a rogue?

We also use the point buy creation method (28pts). Since rogues highest score is usually dex, you need a good strength to say only lightly encumbered, you need a good con (in part to resist poison) and a good wis for listen and spot, rogues with int mods are rare.

Really? All the people I know who've played rogues (including yours truly) went for high dex and int. It's never occurred to any of us not to have an int of less than 14. Minimum. Huh. We've all emphasized int over wis. *shrugs*

 

[Nareau]

Forgive me if I'm wrong...

But can't rogues take 20 on their trap-searching? I know they can't take 20 on disarming traps (as there's penalty for failure). But I don't see any reason for not being able to take 20.

A rogue could easily get 5 ranks in Search, and be pretty much set. He's got a good chance to find most traps (while taking 20, and maybe getting all his friends to aid him). And the sorceror can cast Detect Magic to look for magical traps ("Hey, the chest has an aura! Better open it with the pole, just to be safe.") Granted this won't work on everything (as you won't be casting DM on every door, or taking 2 minutes every time). But it should take care of most of your traps.

Besides, search is good for a lot more things! Finding that ruby buried in the basilisk's nest, for example.

 

[Omegium]

Re: Forgive me if I'm wrong...

But can't rogues take 20 on their trap-searching? I know they can't take 20 on disarming traps (as there's penalty for failure). But I don't see any reason for not being able to take 20.

Yes, they can, but remember it takes 40 minutes for every 5 ft square. You will run into other problems eventually (like monsters seeing you while you are unable to stop them since you are paranoid about traps, going for their buddies, and soon you have the whole dungeon at once)

And about the int: I think int is the most important stat. The rogue I am currently playing has stats 10,15,14,16,11,12. Ok, at lvl 4 I will be raising my dex so it gets at the same level as int. I could raise int later, since it is not retrospective and I needed those 7 extra skillpoints
I am human, and have one skillpoint less than the maximum possible, and I am still short in them.

 

[Kamard]

My favorite trap from Song and Silence? The Crushing Room!

My favorite is the forcecage/summon monster VII combo.

Thats just plain wrong.

For a cheaper CR, just use a pit trap and a SM VII or Nature's ally pairing.

 

[RogueJK]

Re: Re: Forgive me if I'm wrong...

I could raise int later, since it is not retrospective...

Methinks you mean "retroactive".