Search vs. Spot

[Innocent Bystander]

Example scenario 1: You're under fire from a hidden opponent(s). You're behind some cover and trying to locate your attacker(s).

Example scenario 2: You're in a large cluttered storeroom. You know your quarry is in here, but where?

As the skills are written, when Search is used, you must be within 10 feet of the object. Spot is written as the opposing skill to Hide, but I also get the feeling that it's more of a reactive skill, ie. spot the ambush, or the person following you, or the monkey that's actually a polymorphed 12 headed hydra.

Would you allow someone who's actively searching for a hidden opponent to use the Search skill? Or would you stick to using Spot?

I have no bias one way or the other. I can see both sides of the discussion as being valid. I'm just looking to get some other opinions.

 

[DungeonMaester]

Spot is a instantaneous action. In the example you gave, if the enemy's head is poking out, then can 'spot' it.

Search is taking time to find something. If the enemy is well hidden in a dark corner, then the players would have to search for him.

It is all how much time the players want to spend on the action.


---Rusty

 

[Delta]

Disagree with the previous poster.
- Spot is for big, far-away things (-1 per 10 feet away).
- Search is for little, close-up things (must be within 10 feet).

Spot can definitely be used either in a reactive or an intentional manner, per the skill description:

Spot: Action
Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Given the Time requirements on a search check, I would assume that the hide check does not quite stand up against it quite as well as a spot check. In most reasonable cases, I think the one hiding should automatically be found unless there are extraordinary circumstances.

The DC of the hide check should be set based on how hard it would be to locate a similarily sized object that is not cable of hiding.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[DungeonMaester]

But, if you are in a wearhouse searching for a ring, and it is in a closed box, unlabed, next to you, you do not make a spot check to find it, you make a search check.

---Rusty

 

[Innocent Bystander]

But, if you are in a wearhouse searching for a ring, and it is in a closed box, unlabed, next to you, you do not make a spot check to find it, you make a search check.

---Rusty

And I guess this is where I'm coming from. How does searching for a person hiding differ from trying to find a hidden object?

Despite how it's spelled out in the rules, I think I'm leaning towards Search being able to counter Hide as Spot does if a character wishes to actively Search for a hidden opponent.

 

[Goolpsy]

Well.. according to the rules.. the hidden person is still there, even though he might be invisible too..

Ever head anyone say i a museum: "Don't see with your hands"
Search (For me at least) is using your hands, and eyes ... and. .. well body too to find something.
Ex: You search the floor: "crawling on your knees on the floor, letting your hands feel through the floor while actively searching for something..."

Spot: To purely See Something.. especially if you somehow feel that there's someone there watching you, but you cannot find out where.. (Or if you've heard a sound)
In a case of "I step in all possible 5x5 feet squares flicking my hands about trying to touch the 'might be invisible' opponent" .. theres no real spot involved. You're not using your eyes trying to reveal your opponent...

You might also put it like this: Search is to find something "stationary" within reach.
Spot is seeing something NON-stationary...

 

[Christian]

Well, remember, Search requires 1 full round for a 5' square, which needs to be within 10' of the searcher. So it's pretty damn hard to Search for a hidden opponent unless you already have a good idea where it is ...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Search (For me at least) is using your hands, and eyes ... and. .. well body too to find something.

Bear in mind that you can Search a square from ten feet away. Which either means using your eyes, or real long arms...

-Hyp.

 

[Merkuri]

Though it's not in the RAW, I think that absolutely you can use search to look for someone you know is hiding in a given area. Spot is standing still and looking for something. If no part of it or signs of its presense are visible then you're not going to be able to spot it, like a ring in a drawer. Searching is taking a thourough look through an area, opening containers, turning objects over, tapping on floorboards, etc.

If you see someone you're chasing dart into a closet and slam the door, then you come along and open said door you can first take a spot check (move action) to see if you notice a box that's out of place or the edge of a cloak sticking out from behind a cabinet that might signify a person is hiding there. If you do not spot the person immediately you can begin looking using the search check. You take 1 round per 5' square to open every closet, move every box, and lift every cloth you see. I would probably give the hider some sort of penalty (or the searcher a bonus, depending on how you want to look at it) because to find the person you have to be in the same square as he is. The thing is, the hider is free to move around as the searcher searches, perhaps moving into an area the searcher already looked in. Of course, the searcher would probably get a spot check to notice the movement.

I'd probably make the player give me the pattern he's using to search the room (around the outside in a circle, then spiral inward, or go back and forth across the width of the room?) and would assume the hider is moving to avoid the searcher if he gets too close, giving the searcher spot checks when the movement occurs.