Searching for "New School" elements

[Lanefan]

Likewise, an old school dm can run, say, Pyramid of Shadows in an old-skool way. It's hard to avoid how linear the map is, but you can spice it up by having new threats arrive behind the pcs, by letting one encounter reinforce another, and by accepting the possibility that the pcs will be trapped inside forever instead of automatically giving them an escape route.

I ran "Keep on the Shadowfell" like this after converting it to 1e and given its design shortcomings it certainly did well enough.

Lan-"though if KotS was a 1e module it would be 20 pages rather than 96"-efan

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Lanefan wrote:
Lan-"though if KotS was a 1e module it would be 20 pages rather than 96"-efan

Now this may just be the defining characteristic of new/old school.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

It isn't about the adventure per se, so much as the intersection of the adventure and the running of it.

The Uncaring DM (old school) versus the Nanny DM (new school)?

I can agree to this point of view, but why do so many people still fight over the quality of the printed adventures, then?

Running a new-school adventure as UDM should be rather easy as all you have to do is drop the soft stuff and maybe pump up the danger to reach the lethality rate you feel comfortable with.

Running an old-school dungeon as NDM, on the other hand, requires more work to be done. You have to add all the fluffy soft stuff, re-calculate all traps and encounters to bring them into your comfort zone, and possibly prepare a deus ex machina to extract the heroes.

My feeling is, now, that UDMs tend to complain more about new-school material than the NDMs about old-school adventures.

 

[pemerton]

I'd be interested in a comparison using a non tournament module from the early days. I know there are some railroads in there too (Castle Amber anyone?)

I've experienced Castle Amber twice - once as a player nearly 30 years ago, and once as a GM a little over 10 years ago. I don't think I finished it as a player - I can't remember what happened. I know we didn't finish it when I was GMing, as it was a temporary group and we started the module just for fun.

But how railroady is it? Quirky, yes, but by D&D standards I didn't find it especially railroady - and certainly not compared to more recent modules like Dead Gods, Bastion of Broken Souls or Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.

(And for those who don't know it, there is a fun Castle Amber piss-take thread here.)

 

[Doug McCrae]

Some amusingly new school quotes from 1e:

Each of you will become an artful thespian as time goes by - and you will acquire gold, magic items, and great renown as you become Falstaff the Invincible!

- PHB page 7

the player character is all-important

- DMG page 80


And elsewhere:

each Dungeon Master uses the rules to become a playwrite (hopefully of Shakespearean stature), scripting only plot outlines however, and the players become the Thespians.

- Gary Gygax, Dragon #22

Dungeons and Dragons, as is written, should play like a good fantasy story.

- Dragon #29, Doug Green, Rewarding Heroism in D&D

The method gives dungeonmasters better guidance than previously available on the thorny question of how many wandering monsters should appear against a party of a particular size and strength.

- White Dwarf #1, Don Turnbull's Monstermark system

What sorts of challenges are appropriate? How stiff should the opposition be? Generally, these are questions the GM will answer by examining the game materials, assessing the prowess of the PCs and their players, and then selecting and combining elements of the game rules and the milieu so that the strength of the opposition is tailored to the capabilities of those who will contest against it.

- Role-Playing Mastery by Gary Gygax, page 43

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think you're on to something here- the fact is, you can run even the most old-skool module in a new school way (and vice versa) if you're just willing to discard certain bits of it- often as little as the advice to the dm.

For instance, a new school dm could run Tomb of Horrors in a new school way; it would involve giving the pcs lots of checks to notice trouble, ignoring all the "count to 10" stuff in favor of giving the pcs plenty of time to consider their options, etc.

Likewise, an old school dm can run, say, Pyramid of Shadows in an old-skool way. It's hard to avoid how linear the map is, but you can spice it up by having new threats arrive behind the pcs, by letting one encounter reinforce another, and by accepting the possibility that the pcs will be trapped inside forever instead of automatically giving them an escape route.

It isn't about the adventure per se, so much as the intersection of the adventure and the running of it.

Yes. Can't give you XP right now

All adventure text is merely a collection of suggestions.

The manner in which the game is conducted is far more of an indication of its new school content. A few adjustments can make any adventure into one featuring some old school qualities.

Does the adventure provide challenge for the player?

Does the DM need to decide on the outcome of certain events/activities based on the actions of the PC without jumping through mechanical formulas? (i.e. make rulings)

If there are no parts of the adventure that feature these things then it may be leaning toward new school.

While the setup for Castle Amber is certainly a railroad, the adventure does feature old school elements throughout.

 

[Umbran]

YMMV, but methinks Bullgrit protesteth too much.

And methinks he is not alone in that, either.

Dude, it's an internet messageboard about a niche hobby activity. Most of our content is comprised of folks protesting too much. Pot, kettle, and all that.

If you think his "See how tricky I can be in describing this classic era module, in forlorn hopes ..."

Do you really want to address this by inserting your personal assessment of the motivations or character of the speaker?

His hopes are not particularly relevant. The point is still demonstrated - a module touted as a classic from "old school" days apparently can be made to look like a "new school" adventure through merely a change in emphasis, rather than a change in content.

This brings us around to the idea that chaochou suggests - the majority of the difference may lie not in the content itself, but in how we approach the content.

 

[Raven Crowking]

This assumes (1) that the presentation is negligible when determining emphasis and approach to material, and (2) Bullgrit's presentation/summary of the module doesn't constitute a "change of content" as to what is actually in the module. Remove those two assumptions, and Bullgrit's point is not demonstrated.....although his assumptions may be demonstrated.

You can modify White Plume Mountain to make it run as a "new school" adventure, and you can modify "Trollhaunt Warrens" to make it run as an "old school" adventure. This doesn't mean that the content has not changed! Rather the opposite -- one changes the content to meet the new requirements, either ahead of time or (depending upon the complexity of the system being changed to) on the fly.

If the point is that a module touted as a classic from "old school" days apparently can be made to look like a "new school" adventure through nothing more than tricksy word play, then I agree....and I agreed already upthread.

Likewise, with tricksy word play, an Edsel can be made to seem like a Winnebago, a Volkswagon Beetle to seem like a jet airliner, and a lemon to seem like the Skydome in Toronto.

I fail to see what that demonstrates, apart from "language is imprecise" or "people can be gullable".


RC

 

[the Jester]

SPOILERS FOR P1 BELOW.

My feeling is, now, that UDMs tend to complain more about new-school material than the NDMs about old-school adventures.

This is a very interesting observation, and I agree.

You can modify White Plume Mountain to make it run as a "new school" adventure, and you can modify "Trollhaunt Warrens" to make it run as an "old school" adventure. This doesn't mean that the content has not changed! Rather the opposite -- one changes the content to meet the new requirements, either ahead of time or (depending upon the complexity of the system being changed to) on the fly.

Hmm, I don't know about that. I'm actually running King of the Trollhaunt Warrens right now, and I haven't changed it except in style, responding to the pcs. For one example, the pcs waited in Moonstair for a troll attack before heading out to find the warren, so

Spoiler

the attack that typically comes in the middle of their exploration of the warren was the start for the adventure them.

For another, they have an Essentials enchanter in the group, so

Spoiler

the party managed to play Gloomfang against Skalmad to the point that they avoided a tpk by getting the two of them to fight each other more than they were attacking the party.

A new pc just joined the group who happened to be a dragonborn;

Spoiler

when the party snuck into the troglodyte shaman's chamber and lurked in ambush, the shaman spotted the dragonborn and tried to get him to join the trogs in a scaled alliance against the milk-spewing, live-birthing warm-bloods.

Although the dragonborn declined, this (along with Otto's song of fidelity and some clever roleplay) led to the pcs coming to an understanding

Spoiler

that took the troglodytes out of the equation for them.

None of that is a change to the module; all of that is an "old skool" approach to running with what's in there.

Okay, wait- to be fair, I have changed some stuff in that I've increased the monster damage to MM3 standards and used some random encounters that are slightly different from the listed ones (using some of the other types of trolls in Monster Vault, for instance). But I don't think that really counts.

 

[Raven Crowking]

[MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION]: Are you running the material as presented? It doesn't sound like it. Reading KotTW, it seems to me that you are supposed to present the encounters in a specific way, and in a specific order. If you are not doing so, I would qualify that as a major change. If you are not doing that, I would hesitate to call what you are doing "old school".