seasong's Light Against The Dark II (May 13)

Nail said:
DISCLAIMER: We are, in fact, talking about a fantasy world, and not implying anything about how things should be in the real world.
Heh. Yeah :). Forgive me for getting on my Noble Savages kick :).
I'd be very interested in what you (Seasong) have to say about the "domestication" of the orcs. How is it likely to start? How is it going to be continued? How can it work in a world filled with magic and adventurers running around? Etc.
Again, it may not even get off the ground. At this point, the Council has convened and decided that it needs to be done, and they have decided on a method for spinning it to the populace. But they remain sensitive to the populace, and if the idea lacks any popular support, many Council Members will pull their support for it as well.

If it does get off the ground, it would most likely work through the military - they provide a central starting point. The military would capture orcs, charge them with "war debt", and sentence them to a period of time (or an amount of service) necessary to work off that debt, away from the war. Children would be free of war debt, of course, and it would all look very temporary.

The actual numbers, initially, are likely to be about 1 orc in the fields per 50 Theralese citizens, and since the orcs would be a lot cheaper to "hire from the military", the poorest vineyards (and the greediest) would likely be the first to adopt orcs in their fields.

Since there are orc citizens, who are immensely valued, a method of differentiating them would be needed - a simple iron band around the neck, thick enough to be "unbreakable", would be sufficient. If there were problems, branding might be used, with a date in the brand, so that anyone could look at the brand and know the orc was free now.

Orcs would be kept mostly separate, with any given orc mostly seeing humans during the 50:1 ratio period. As more war debtors came in, orcs would gradually begin to be put together, but even then they would not be allowed to speak with orcs in other regions, and an uprising in one area would be brutally put down, as an example to prevent it from happening elsewhere. After the first "rebellion" or two, it is unlikely that any orcs would be willing to be the ones to start anything.

At the moment, that's all theory, of course. As I said, support for it could disappear in a heartbeat.

As for magic and adventurers... (I assume you meant "heroes")

Magic doesn't change power relationships - at most, it changes who HAS the power, but not how that power is used. And Theralis is the one with the magic.

Powerful individuals (such as Kyriotes) can have immense impacts on society. And do. For example, Phitios is a powerful individual. He is about to attempt to change his society on a macroscopic scale.

Of course, the standard D&D adventurer is a little different - they have very modernist ideas and ideals, such as an innate sense of modern justice and sentient rights. If they were charismatic, they would likely have a sizable impact on the world, and the cost of maintaining slaves (adding "angry adventurers wrecking town" to the list of maintenance costs).
As an aside: do your orcs have the "light sensitivity" flaw? How does that play in to this?
Nope.
 

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How will it be done? Spartan Style!
We will defeat them.
Then we will remove memory of their culture and their past.
Those that cause trouble will be killed.
Those that attempt to organize will be destroyed.
Those that betray their fellows will be rewarded.
The generations that come after will be civilized in our ways and become contributing members of our society.

If they don't, they will wish they had joined their fellows at the foot of Ugrahd. (Yah I know it's spelled wrong, but I don't have the time to look up the name. I'll edit later.)

Don't expect sympathy from this generation of Theralies. They/we are very very tired and very very cranky!
 
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Incidentally, before this turns into a riot ;)...

Theralis isn't the good guy, here. Theralis has never BEEN the good guy - it's just a city-state, which happens to have been the birthing place of some scions of Allas. Remember, Akeros wasn't born in a vacuum, and he worked for someone.
 

Thanks, Seasong. More detailed than I expected, given this is a continuing campaign.

Excellent attitude, Greppa. You'll go far, son.

IIMC, I've toyed with introducing a slave-race. That is, a race that may have once been "free", but are now servants and slaves of the ruling race. Thus I'm keenly interested in how such slavery would be "started" in a campaign. In mine, it would have been going on for some time before the PCs started adventuring.

Given the common races, orcs actually seem like an excellent choice, given their ability score mods (+4 Str, -2 Int, Wis, & Chr) and natural alignment (CE). Of course, I'm not entirely sure how they are in your campaign, Seasong, but those lowered mental abilities makes them less able to organize an effective uprising. The low Chr would be the real problem for them. ...Again, this is all "metagaming" and "given the core 3e rules", so it's probably not applicable.

You say orcs don't get "light sensitivity".....do they have Darkvision?
 

Nail said:
Thanks, Seasong. More detailed than I expected, given this is a continuing campaign.
Heh :). It depends upon the campaign, of course, but I'm not revealing any dark secrets. For one thing, I'm just discussing the theory, not the facts, in how slavery can be handled :).

Darkvision: Yup, they have it.
 

Academia: Really Ancient History

Before Amalan, and before even venerable Aglaonis, there was the dragon Kyrkolan. A massive beast who had aged and died before Amalan was born, he once oversaw tens of thousands of square miles, including the birth, rise, and fall of the Kithios Empire.

An empire Kyrkolan is believed to have destroyed, albeit indirectly.

The Capitol of Kithios was south and west of where Theralis lies today, on the peninsula's coast, and it was a mighty city that dwarfed all that have followed since, but now lies as only vague outlines of ruins and unusually square boulders. Three highways, unearthed from the bedrock of the land itself, stretched north, east and south, and provided safe travel to those who would do trade with Kithios or its many subject cities.

Kyrkolan oversaw, and they followed his laws, breaking only those areas of wilderness they were given, and restricting their own growth to remain within the tolerances of the dragon. And they grew very powerful. They bound spirits of the earth and sky to the roadways to guide and protect, summoned celestial and infernal creatures to perform, advise and do great tasks. They constructed granite fortresses, raised arcanists of unmatched skill, and eventually... became weary of the shackles placed upon them by Kyrkolan.

What happened after is not wholly known. It is believed that they sent a band of their best heroes, matched in might only by arrogance, to slay the dragon, and that they succeeded in this task... but that Kyrkolan had prepared for this day, and set a contingency upon his death. When the great dragon died, the land came alive. Roads ripped themselves apart, the coast collapsed into the sea, sharks feasted upon the drowning, while trees marched into every region of land outside and ripped buildings and people as one might tear paper. As it is said, nothing is certain, but this is what is believed to have happened.

Kithios died. The wilderness healed. Time passed, and dragons retook the lands, and watched civilized people more closely for a time. Kithios died, and many secrets were buried with it.
 

Nice! So satisfying to know that even if they kill you, your work will continue.

I think that "ancient ruins" are one of those things that are almost required for the fantasy genre. I know that Ryan Dancey's submission to the Fantasy Setting Search involved creating a new world, but that's a different and very thought-requiring thing.

So then this is a very nicely done intro to what I hope will be a fun plot for the heroes one of these days...

John
 

Kithios

Greppa was in the city proper, studying books. Responsibilities to Theralis had taken up most of his time, and so he'd not had the chance to really start looking for places to go, but he had to find something. There were scrolls, books, ancient magics, all hidden out there somewhere, in the fallen civilizations of the past. Weird coins, broken statuary, the faint scent of yellowed spell books...

And it didn't help that Kyriotes and his cotery had been seen flying out of the city twice in the past month, then returning to his tower with a ton of... something piled on that magical carpet of his. Greppa frowned, refocusing his eyes on the tiny text, and allowed himself a bit of a pout. It just wasn't fair, that Kyriotes, so established already, was looting everything worth looting already.

"Ah, excuse... excuse me." The voice came from Irine, the library's guardian, of sorts. A tiny woman with a tiny voice, she was nonetheless known for her abilities as an esper, though she rarely used them. "But, the last few times you've been here... I noticed.. I noticed that you seem to be reading a lot of history?"

Greppa nodded, standing and deferring his head in respect.

"Well, I... why don't you have a look... ah, look at the maps, then? I know most adventurers.. they think... think that, perhaps, the written literature shows everything. But maps.. maps sometimes show holes."

Greppa was already following her, "Holes? You mean, holes in what's mapped?"

"Holes in the... in the stories."

For just a moment, Greppa fell in love. He was just about to hug the old woman when he saw the map she was leading him to. Tucked into the back of the library, away from the damaging sun, it was thinly sliced hide parchment, cracked almost its entire length by the wearing of time and spackled with spots and worn patches.

It was hideous. It was beautiful. He coveted it and, entranced, he drew across the floor until he was immediately in front of it. Symbols were marked across its length in a language he did not speak, lines of unknown meaning crossed patches of the landscape... he saw a shape he recognized. A faint squiggled lake in the upper right hand corner of the map, that he would recognize anywhere, the winding path of Tartwater and the river that passed through it. And a bit south of that Little Lake, and further from that, the canyons to Southpass.

And then, like a radiating sun along the middle of the map, symbols that might mark cities he'd never known existed. He turned to Irine, "How... But don't adventurers look at this all the time?"

"Oh... yes... yes, I've shown it. But only... I only know of them going..." and she showed him. Prominent symbols. Landmarks and cities. "They... no one goes for the smaller stuff. It might be... be as important, but, ah, no one reads the language."

Greppa smiled as an idea blossomed in his head. A beautiful idea. An idea that would only occur to a generalist arcanist, one who worked to slip across the boundaries of what magic was intended for.

He thanked Irine and gave her a hug, then set to work. Casting summoning circle after summoning circle, he interrogated dozens of lantern archons, until he found one who had been around at the time of the older civilization. The poor dear knew almost nothing of that civilization (nor, he discovered, was any other likely to), but it could read the language.

Greppa cracked his knuckles, and got the name of the puffball of light. He and it were going to be spending all night together, poring over the map.

He didn't stop grinning all night.
 

Quick side note: Greybar has a story hour that he has failed to pimp here for some reason. It's just starting, but looks nice :D. And the website is more informative than mine :D.
Greybar said:
Nice! So satisfying to know that even if they kill you, your work will continue.
Rule 1: Never get in a fight you can't win.
Rule 2: You can't win a fight with a dragon.

;)

Of course, that's not an absolute. It's just a caution not to underestimate a dragon, and to be utterly, completely prepared... because the dragon will be :D.
I think that "ancient ruins" are one of those things that are almost required for the fantasy genre.
Well... short of a copper age culture, it's hard to imagine a world where there aren't ruins of the past. And in a setting where magic items last forever... suspension of disbelief becomes difficult without the presence of things to explore :D.
So then this is a very nicely done intro to what I hope will be a fun plot for the heroes one of these days...
Almost immediately, in fact - they have a break before the summer comes, and they plan to use it.
 

Academia: Slavery

This is a simplified look at slavery in general, and why it works. As with strategies in battle, I have more information and history at hand than Theralis does, so this isn't a primer on how Theralis slavery will work - it's just a preview of how I view slavery in a historical context, and what approach I'm taking in culture building in Theralis. It's pure fluff, in other words ;).

With that said, it's fairly frank, and probably politically incorrect. Many people would prefer that slavery didn't work, that it was impractical or only inspired by evil, and I don't much cotton to that blindered approach to reality. Slavery is what it is, and while we find it abhorrent as a culture enlightened by some 2,000+ years of human rights theory and "enlightened self interest" theory, Theralis (and most earlier civilizations) don't.

Domesticating Human Beings

At its heart, slavery is the process by which another person is convinced that their best interests lie in serving your best interests for very little return. Since, on the face of it, there's no reason whatsoever for that to be true, you will usually have to create a highly specialized situation wherein not serving your best interests is somehow worse.

The specifics vary somewhat by culture, of course. For example, a person raised to believe that freedom is the only path to heaven will have to somehow be persuaded that you can ensure they will go to hell anyway. And fanatics of any stripe are unlikely to be convertible - fortunately for the would-be slave maker, true fanatics are rare.

Once you have established this highly specialized situation, you must then maintain it. Only the dimmest of minds will fail to attempt to alter the situation until it becomes feasible to consider interests other than yours. Thus, maintaining slaves is a constant struggle, and often a costly one - the question is whether the gain (in labor) exceeds the cost (in your labor, and feeding and care of the slaves). In most primitive societies, it most often is.

Breaking Communication

Slaves who are allowed to communicate with each other have many options open to them, which would otherwise be closed. As in the modern age when the Internet allows organized revolutions and massive populations to coordinate over wide areas, slaves who are allowed to communicate freely will be able to stage revolts and actions simultaneously - and if you have enough slaves to break even on cost, you have too many slaves to stop all at once.

Thus, preventing communication over more than a small area is of tantamount importance. Well established methods include promoting illiteracy (except among specialized slaves who are further separated from the others), preventing mixing of slave groups, restricting travel (even outside the home!) and (in some extreme cases) removing tongues or otherwise enforcing silence.

By way of example, plantation slaves in the south were allowed to sing, but not to talk after dark; were usually not allowed to leave their plantation; were almost never sold in groups to the same person; were kept illiterate; and were sometimes isolated in small shacks when they misbehaved. They got around this in various ways, from encoding messages in gospels to sneaking out at night, and these methods were clamped down whenever they were discovered in a constant struggle.

Obedience Treatment

Almost as important is motivation. As mentioned before, it is very important that not serving your interests be worse than serving them. Generally, there are three approaches here: capital treatment, breaking treatments, and game treatments.

Capital Treatment is simple - slaves who disobey are killed or horribly mutilated, sometimes both. Babylon and Egypt both seem to have followed this route, as did many eastern cultures. When you first enslave a people, you end up killing a lot of them, but by then the remainder are very, very complacent. In general, a culture has to view another group as subhuman, possibly even disgustingly so, in order to consider this approach. And while effective, it is not efficient - slaves function better under the other approaches, and you don't have the harvest cost. There is also the side issue of how the slaves will treat you if they ever do become free.

Breaking Treatment is convuluted, and useful only in small numbers at a time, but ultimately results in the most functional and permanent slaves. Essentially, the slave-to-be is targetted with a combination of mild torture ("mild" is judged on a case-by-case basis), propoganda and statements to the effect of "I don't want to do this to you, but if you can't be obedient, I have no choice". Some people call it brain washing, but the result is a broken and conditioned individual who has problems even thinking about revolt. This is often combined with one of the others, as a way of handling slaves needed for sensitive duties.

Game Treatment is somewhat more difficult than Capital Treatment, but primarily involves appealing to self interest. Punishments for misbehavior are initially mild (beatings, isolation chambers, reduced food), increasing with the severity and commonality of the infractions. The emphasis is always put forth that the punishments are fair, and that slaves are treated for how they behave, rather than who they are. Then rewards begin, for those who are particularly obedient, or who help others be obedient. That latter part is important, because it helps the slaves enter the game as near-equals to their masters, and gives them a stake in the social structure that they would not otherwise have. And, irrational as it is, that stake means something to the slave, particularly if there's room for advancement (even very little advancement).

Tipping Points

The above two primarily serve to keep revolts small and disorganized, and to reduce the number of slaves involved in the first moments of a revolt. Not all slaves will respond well to a treatment, but enough will that the hesitant ones prevent a unified uprising. Communication, similarly, prevents the uprising from occurring in all places at the same time.

It is assumed that there will be revolts - the goal is to make sure that all revolts that occur can be stopped, and used as an example to lengthen the time before the next one.

In the first few moments of a revolt, assuming you have done the other things well, you will have a small group who are leading the revolt. They believe, for whatever reason, that they can succeed. Perhaps they feel that if they just show the way, the other slaves will surge behind them - and they would be right, if they were allowed to show the way.

Instead, they are killed, messily, while those who were still afraid, or not certain it would work, or just confused, watch on. It's a tipping point, and it usually ends the revolt fairly quickly.

Escapees

As with fanatics who can not be converted, there will be those you can not catch. While lacking the firm principles and moral strength of the fanatics, they are both more clever and more agile than you or your soldiers. They get away.

To a certain extent, as with shoplifting in retail, you just have to accept your losses and do what you can to minimize them. You can also make sure that those who try to escape and DO get caught are treated in the most horrible fashion your culture allows... so that fewer try, and therefore fewer still succeed.

Ultimately, however, the only cost with those who escape is actually that they might come back, because then they might help others, or help establish communication. Usually, they just run, and it's okay to put minimal resources on it, and then let them go; when they come back, a great deal of resources must be put forward to stop them, or you may end up with a successful revolt...

Conclusion

Slavery is a condition from which it is often nearly impossible to break free of. Even in most literature, it takes acts of God, an enemy at the gates, or some other outside force - the number of successful slave revolts can be counted on one hand, and most of them involved a failure of the masters to follow the above rules.

Of course, nearly impossible is not entirely impossible.
 

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