Sell Hackmaster to me

[Philotomy Jurament]

So, I've heard a little bit about the game Hackmaster, took a look on their site and it looks very much like OD&D.

It's more like AD&D than OD&D (although that may be what you meant).

I am very attracted to the "GMs versus the players" mode of play, but I don't gather how it works exactly. Normally, "GM versus the players" type thinking leads to the GM splatting the players in short order. What in the Hackmaster game prevents this? Are there rules on what the GM is allowed to use, or what they're allowed to do? If it's just self-restraint, the game's the same as normal D&D, and I already shelled out for that

I think "GM vs. players" is more of a mind-set, and not really tied to the rules. It's nothing new -- you could do "GM vs. players" just as well in 3E, IMO. Some might even argue that 3E would be better for that kind of game, since the more detailed rules take away some of the DM fiat (supposedly, anyway).

Next thing I worry about - D&D has come a long way since first edition, and I think it's a far better game for it.

This makes me think that you're probably better off sticking with 3E. Hackmaster is basically AD&D with the amp turned up to 11, and the addition of the over-the-top parody/humor bits. I'd call Hackmaster the Spinal Tap of D&D.

I'm a fan of the older versions of D&D, and prefer them, in many cases. (I agree with you that D&D has changed quite a bit, and that 3E is a good game, but I think plays very differently from the earlier versions.) I checked out Hackmaster, but it wasn't really for me. It was kind of funny to read, but too over-the-top for my tastes. I'd rather just play AD&D or C&C (my game-of-choice, these days).

 

[theCheese]

So, I've heard a little bit about the game Hackmaster, took a look on their site and it looks very much like OD&D. I am very attracted to the "GMs versus the players" mode of play, but I don't gather how it works exactly.

Normally, "GM versus the players" type thinking leads to the GM splatting the players in short order. What in the Hackmaster game prevents this? Are there rules on what the GM is allowed to use, or what they're allowed to do? If it's just self-restraint, the game's the same as normal D&D, and I already shelled out for that

A lot of people in the HM community don't really play with a "GM vs Players" mentality, but the game does go back to the old "The GM is always right" perspective that I've found lacking in d20 games that I've played in. I know that an individual d20 GM could easily implement this in his games, but:
1) I've never seen it happen.
2) The rules are actively vocal about who gets to look at what books - any modules or GM-only info is clearly marked as such. The Player's Handbook is more of a book of guidelines (other than character creation, spell lists, etc) than hard rules, which is the GM's domain.

Next thing I worry about - D&D has come a long way since first edition, and I think it's a far better game for it. Will I be jarred by how old Hackmaster is? I'm just going by the art on the front really, as I can't find too much solid information on the mechanics, but I did notice a few throwbacks to 2nd ed on their website (things like having percentage chances to spot traps and that stuff). Does this stuff get in the way a lot?

By the sound of it - yes, you'd be jarred. HM has a real old-school flavor to it. It takes from 1st, 2nd and 2nd Ed. Player's Option AD&D and adds in a lot of new mechanics to make an entirely new game. Hackmaster also tweaks the attack matrices (THAC0) to make combat much more violent. It uses the old style of saving throws, thief skills, etc... things that unfortunately would probably "get in the way" of your style of play. - I'm not trying to be snarky here, I'm trying to give you an honest answer.

Finally, does anyone here still run Hackmaster regularly and have any tips to running a good game or any general input on the rules as a whole?

I've been running HM nearly weekly for almost 4 years now. While there are a lot of parody aspects written into the game (they had to be there for WoTC to license the AD&D material to Kenzer & Co) any of the over-the-top silliness can be easily ignored.
Hmm.. rules as a whole... let's see:
THINGS THAT ARE BASICALLY THE SAME AS AD&D:
Attack Matrices (1st Ed)
Different Experience Point Tables for different classes
Most of the Character Classes
Most of the Races
Saving Throws
Spells
Thieves' Abilities
Weapon Proficiencies

THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT OR EXPANDED ON FROM AD&D:
Honor - Categories of Honor: Dishonorable, Average Honor, & Great Honor with game mechanics reflecting this
Alignment Tracking & Alignment Infraction Points
Percentile-Based Skill System
Talents - akin to d20 Feats, but only available during character creation
New Classes
New Races
Armor & Weapon Maintenance & Damage - Your armor absorbs damage meant for you - but it gets beat up.
New monsters
New magic items
New Spells
Skill & Level Training
Building Points used at character creation to improve stats, skills, talents, background
Great Character Background tables
Extensive Crit Tables - they do take some getting used to - but they add a lot of excitement to combat once you have them down.
Penetration Damage - keep rolling on the highest die result
Hit Point Kicker - extra HP so that you possibly survive the Crits with Penetration Damage

Hackmaster is extremely playable. The rules are extensive, and this turns off some people, but like any other RPG, after you've been playing for a little while it gets to be second nature. Hackmaster is my favorite game ever. Period. The guys at my table also play in a 3.5 game, but this is the game they get excited about - this is the game they talk about all week long.

 

[James McMurray]

I just recently started play HM after a long time playing 3e and 3.5e. HM is definitely a different feel for a game. It's more gritty, with more of a feeling of death being possible around every corner. A lot of that is due to GMing styles, but another part is not knowing the rules. One of the great things about HM IMO is that the players don't know a lot of the rules, and aren't meant to. For instance, only the GM has acccess to the to hit charts. You tell him what you rolled and he tells you what you hit. Unless you know the charts (and are thus a cheater or GM yourself) then you'll rarely have an idea what someone's AC is, just how hard they are to hit.

There's a lot more that's like that. Honor rules, for instance, tell you what the effects of high and low honor are, and give a list of example things that could change your honor. What they don't do is tell you how much or in what direction that change would be. Alignment is also made more rules friendly. The GM has AIPs (alignment infraction points) that he can give out based on actions, and when you hit a certain point your alignment changes. Changing alignment is not a good thing in HM. You lose at least a level because of it. Some folks don't like that, but it's easy enough to drop if you want.

IMO honor and alignment can make a group that usually doesn't roleplay too much into stronger RPers because the system has within it a rule set that encourages it.

I'd definitely recommend picking up the PHB at least and check it out. Even if you don't play the game the rulebooks are really great and funny to read, which is something not a lot of games can say.

 

[Fathead]

If you liked 1e and 2e, you'll enjoy Hackmaster. It builds on those game mechanics, and makes for some GREAT combat scenes. I've never been big on the combat aspects of roleplaying, but I've always enjoyed the Hackmaster combats - they are just more dangerous, and more interesting. You get penetration damage (if you get the max on a die, roll again and subtract one from the result. if you get max again, keep rolling), and critical hit charts (it makes for an interesting session when characters will ACTUALLY limp off the battlefield).

Some people will criticize the game for the parody...and I admit, there is quite a bit of it. I never liked it, so I wrote most of that out. It was the game mechanics that I found to be more interesting.

As far as the GM vs Player...it's supposed to be a joke. Some GMs take it seriously. Whatever the case, it doesn't have to be that way. If a 3.5 GM wanted to abuse his players, he could. Same thing here.

I play both 3.5 and Hackmaster. I've enjoyed both, for the different elements that they bring to a game.

 

[dcas]

Well, since the game is more or less unsupported at the moment, it won't be too expensive to buy all of the HackMaster core books and supplements on the market!! Glut won't be a concern at all.

 

[rexartur]

I love it!

I run a Hackmaster play-by-post game. You're more than welcome to check it out.

Hackmaster Home Page

Play by Post Hackmaster Board

Chris

 

[Fishbone]

The game is a homage to the older days, and uses a lot of the 1e rules with a lot of added stuff/house rules. It plays pretty good. The talents, quirks, and flaws that you choose or roll up go a long way to making every character unique and memorable. The races like Pixie Fairies, Thug Halfings, and Gnome Titans are pretty sweet. The monster books have plenty of serious monsters in them but there is plenty of humor, too. Another thing not mentioned: Hackmaster has 3 of the coolest and best developed adventures for Dungeons and Dragons, any edition. Quest for the Unknown, Little Keep on the Borderlands, and Annihilate the Giants are great adventures that will last for a good long time.Though there are 8 Monster Manuals(Hacklopedias) they can be picked up cheaply as they are older and softcovers, so you can get all of them for about the price of a standard hardcover D&D monster book or 2. The 4 class splatbooks are also really nice, too.
To play you don't need a lot
Hackmaster GM and Player's Guide
A self made adventure, or one of the adventures that Kenzer put out
Bingo, thats it.
The Hacklopedias and Splatbooks are just gravy, that above set up should cost well under 50 bucks and keep a group entertained for months.
Edit:One of the cooler things is coupons, which can be spent by players for a boon at character creation or in a crucial time. But the HM gets to answer back with coupons of his own to bone the players.

 

[TheGM]

I ran HM for years, mostly attempting to use it as a serious system.

It's not.

If you want an evening of fun and you have a masochist that will paw through the convoluted (on purpose by all appearances) rules, it'll be great. We still use it for one-off games.

But if you don't want your characters dying during generation, or perpetually walking around with missing limbs, it's probably not the game for long-term use.

It is very much 2E with some crunch added, so if that's what you're looking for you will enjoy it, if you get past the parody. After years of trying to remove the parody, we gave up. That and it's called Hack Master for a reason - my players who prefered arcane spellcasters hated it. There are more spells, but survival is low for a guy in robes.

And, as someone else mentioned, it is getting zero attention from the designers these days. Not updates, modules, or added rulebooks. If that's a problem for you (the game is complete as-is, so it might not be), then you won't enjoy it.

Finally, they made a bad choice for the monster manuals - 8 books at 20 bucks each. And they're alphabetical, not themed, so it's tough not to buy one. You can use the 1E or 2E MMs with a little tweaking, so this might not be a huge deal either.

That's about it, off the top of my head - hard to swallow throwbacks are AC going down and init going up, but they're just mechanics, you can get used to them.

Don.

 

[James McMurray]

Gotta disagree with The GM on this one. His group's inability to play it seriously doesn not equate to the game's inability to be played seriously. There are quite a few people out there that play it that way.

Likewise the characters dying during creation and walking around with missing limbs is something that only happens if you do it to yourself, and you can always avoid it by spending a build point to reroll. Dying during creation is a nod to the Traveller system, which for some reason decided that you should sometimes die before you make it to the campaign. HM's fighter school (which is completely optional) can cause death, but like I said you can just reroll if you want. Just being a human fighter gives you somewhere around 20 build points and it just costs one to reroll. IMO the fighter charts aren't really worth rolling on because of the low reward ratio on them.

Walking around missing limbs can also happen during character creation, but only if you choose to take the flaw or you random roll it. Like with school, you can spend a build point to reroll the flaw. One thing a lot of new players seem to do, and this may be what happened to TheGM's group, is to roll way to many flaws. Unlike most games, the HM flaws are actually painful to have. They give nice amounts of build points though, so most people opt for at least a couple. They also give flavor to every character.

I have to agree about the Hacklopedia thing. I'm not a GM, so I won't be getting those books, but they are pretty expensive. Of course, there's a ton of d20 monster books out (not including non-WotC stuff) so the price to get all current monsters in both settings would be fairly comparable. WotC's stuff has the advantage of being complete and total unto itself though. If you don't want to have sessions filled with the same tight group of alphabetical monsters you'll ned multiple books.

Head over to http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18 and make a post there as well if you'd like to hear more from a bunch of long term HM veterans.

 

[James McMurray]

Head over to http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18 and make a post there as well if you'd like to hear more from a bunch of long term HM veterans.