Sell Me on OSE

[Reynard]

Am I right in thinking a party should start being able to consider taking an OSE red dragon at about 5th level assuming they are able to plan a strike? Looking at the numbers it seems about right.

 

[overgeeked]

Am I right in thinking a party should start being able to consider taking an OSE red dragon at about 5th level assuming they are able to plan a strike? Looking at the numbers it seems about right.

It all depends on how smart the players are and how smart you play the dragon, but I would say not really no.

A red dragon starts with 10** HD for an average of 45 hp. Its breath weapon is a 90’ cone that deals its current hp in damage. A 5th-level fighter will have at most (1d8+3) x 5 hp. So if the fighter rolled less than ~80% of max for hp and fails their save (13 or higher, so 60% to fail)…it’s a one shot kill. If the fighter makes the save (40%), then they’re down by about half from one attack. But going with the average amount of hp a 5th-level fighter would have...yeah, even if they make their save, a round one breath weapon is going to one-shot that fighter. Not to mention all the other characters without that many hp. And that assumes the party starts the fight at full health...which is more than likely not going to happen, making one-shot kills more likely. The dragon can do that 3x per day with diminishing returns due to losing hp as the fight goes on.

Unless the dragon is incredibly dumb, it’s going to fly, avoid melee, and spend 3 rounds covering the party in flaming death. Plus it has three attacks at +8 for 1d8 x2 and 4d8. It’s AC20. It also has a 50% chance for 3 1st-, 3 2nd-, and 3 3rd-level spells. Fireball and lightning bolt come to mind. Fireball and lightning bolt in B/X deal 1d6 per caster level. With 10 HD, that’s a 10d6 fireball (average of 35 damage). X3. Plus those 1st- and 2nd-level spells.

ETA: And that’s not considering the advice from the Monsters and NPCs section of the books. OSEAF Referee’s Tome, p7. Dragons are smart. They will have guards and traps, etc. That will be an incredibly tough fight for a fresh party of 5th-level characters with it being very likely several of them will die in the first few rounds.

 

[Mannahnin]

Unless the dragon is incredibly dumb, it’s going to fly, avoid melee, and spend 3 rounds covering the party in flaming death. Plus it has three attacks at +8 for 1d8 x2 and 4d8. It’s AC20. It also has a 50% chance for 3 1st-, 3 2nd-, and 3 3rd-level spells. Fireball and lightning bolt come to mind. Fireball and lightning bolt in B/X deal 1d6 per caster level. With 10 HD, that’s a 10d6 fireball (average of 35 damage). X3. Plus those 1st- and 2nd-level spells.

ETA: And that’s not considering the advice from the Monsters and NPCs section of the books. OSEAF Referee’s Tome, p7. Dragons are smart. They will have guards and traps, etc. That will be an incredibly tough fight for a fresh party of 5th-level characters with it being very likely several of them will die in the first few rounds.

This is likely one of the reasons that B/X and BECMI give guidelines for dragons in combat which include randomizing which attack form they use in any given round.

But overall, absolutely, yes, a dragon is going to be a very scary fight for most parties, and a red dragon usually more appropriate for a party of maybe 7th or 8th level. A lot hinges on the circumstances of the fight (whether they can attack it in a place where it can't easily fly out of melee reach), and who wins initiative. If the PCs can put a substantial dent in its HP before it gets off a breath weapon attack.

And all this is exacerbated if the DM uses 2nd ed stats, which significantly beefed up dragons.

 

[Reynard]

Thanks @overgeeked and @Mannahnin .

Note a couple things: I am talking about an absolute floor of when the PCs will THEMSELVES think they are ready, and that the rules of the scenario say the dragon will be asleep unless they wait for it to wake up. Mostly I am trying to determine how dense to make the sandbox so I have enough potential XP out there to get them to where they are ready to make their move.

 

[Mannahnin]

Thanks @overgeeked and @Mannahnin .

Note a couple things: I am talking about an absolute floor of when the PCs will THEMSELVES think they are ready, and that the rules of the scenario say the dragon will be asleep unless they wait for it to wake up. Mostly I am trying to determine how dense to make the sandbox so I have enough potential XP out there to get them to where they are ready to make their move.

Makes sense!

You can also seed specific tools in the sandbox which would help against the dragon. One or more rings or potions of fire resistance, a scroll of protection from fire, a magic sword +1 /+3 vs dragons, or even a poison (not save or die, but HP damage or some weakening effect) that's specifically efficacious against dragons that they can obtain from some wizard or druid or something in the setting if they do said NPC a big enough favor.

 

[Reynard]

Makes sense!

You can also seed specific tools in the sandbox which would help against the dragon. One or more rings or potions of fire resistance, a scroll of protection from fire, a magic sword +1 /+3 vs dragons, or even a poison (not save or die, but HP damage or some weakening effect) that's specifically efficacious against dragons that they can obtain from some wizard or druid or something in the setting if they do said NPC a big enough favor.

Yeah, I figured I would do some combination of that and "Say Yes" when they start coming up with bizarre plans.

 

[Voadam]

In addition to morale possibly being on a different scale in 2e (I have not checked), I believe the listed xp is a different formula. You could compare the listed amounts for hobgoblins or some other common monster in both systems to see.

 

[Nikosandros]

In addition to morale possibly being on a different scale in 2e (I have not checked)

Yes, in 2e morale is on a 2-20 scale (2d10) instead of 2-12 (2d6).

 

[Reynard]

Yes, in 2e morale is on a 2-20 scale (2d10) instead of 2-12 (2d6).

Yeah, I think I will use the 2E MM for inspiration and non-mechanical information. I don't ant to have to fiddle with numbers a bunch -- especially the dragon (which is become more St. George-like than Smaug-like the more I plan the thing).

 

[Voadam]

Yeah, I think I will use the 2E MM for inspiration and non-mechanical information. I don't ant to have to fiddle with numbers a bunch -- especially the dragon (which is become more St. George-like than Smaug-like the more I plan the thing).

Most of the key stats are completely mechanically compatible, HD, AC, damage, special attacks and defenses.

There are a few exceptions to be aware of (morale, xp, alignment, dragons, giants). otherwise I would feel free to use them as desired.