Sell me on Savage Worlds -- for Fantasy

[Lockridge]

In, frex, D&D attacks that hit reduce a foe's hit point totals. In SW attacks that hit, but fail to equal/exceed a foe's toughness do nothing. Against high toughness foes, or foes that take half damage from some sorts of weapons, many attacks that hit will do nothing at all. This bothers me in two ways: 1) it's frustrating to make attack after attack and have no effect and 2) it seems bizarre that I could shoot a submachine gun at someone and hit him - repeatedly - and do nothing at all to him.

I have kind of the reverse feeling. In d20 mid level characters can be hit multiple times by a shotgun (or battleax or whatever) and still keep going as though they had lost nothing.
Its a little like d20 in that its abstract. In both SW and d20 you can hit multiple times but in both systems a hit can be just a graze or slight wound. Actually I find SW to be much more deadly, especially with Raises. In d20, a 1st level character really doesn't stand a chance against a 5th level but in SW, don't be too sure.

 

[Corathon]

I have kind of the reverse feeling. In d20 mid level characters can be hit multiple times by a shotgun (or battleax or whatever) and still keep going as though they had lost nothing.
Its a little like d20 in that its abstract. In both SW and d20 you can hit multiple times but in both systems a hit can be just a graze or slight wound. Actually I find SW to be much more deadly, especially with Raises. In d20, a 1st level character really doesn't stand a chance against a 5th level but in SW, don't be too sure.

No question that SW combat can be deadly. Three out of the 5 player characters in our game have died since reaching legendary rank, usually due to a damage roll with many aces.

I just have a hard time visualizing a human being who is hit repeatedly by deadly attacks and is in no way affected. The mid level D&D character is at least being worn down by hits. To each his own, I suppose.

 

[Dragon Snack]

One of the groups I'm in uses Savage Worlds. We switched to it after having too many problems with FUDGE. We made it through the 50 Fathoms campaign (which I ended with a Bolt spell) and are currently playtesting Wonderland No More (Alice is gone and things have taken a turn for the worse). We did have a couple of non-starter games using SW though. I also used to run an alternating 3.0 D&D game with the group. Basically, there is no huge anti-D&D sentiment and this group is willing to try out new systems (there is also interest in a Serenity game, which I also play with yet another group).

I like it, but I'm not totally sold on it. While magic is one of my issues (my mage in 50 Fathoms was just as effective - and sometimes MORE effective - with a sword), oddly I see it as more of a powergaming system than D&D (despite what more than one person above has posted). Because you can pick and choose your edges instead of taking fixed class abilities, it's pretty easy to min/max.

Despite the drawbacks I think it would be a good match for my D&D group. One of the players would be all for it and another player has been flipping through my SW books waiting for game to start (it wasn't left out under ulterior motives, both of those groups meet at my house). Unfortunately 2 of my players are resistant to the idea, oddly enough they are the 2 that I think would like it the best (one thinks that he has too many D&D books to play any other game, the other just seems to be stubborn).

It's fast, easy, and customizable. While I would never leave D&D completely, I wouldn't mind playing in (or running) another Savage Worlds game (it's much better for 'low magic' game, IMO).

 

[Dragon Snack]

No question that SW combat can be deadly. Three out of the 5 player characters in our game have died since reaching legendary rank, usually due to a damage roll with many aces.

That's actually another downside to the system for me. I almost lost my character in 50 Fathoms to a random mook when I was a few XP away from Legendary (5 wounds). If I hadn't had almost as much luck in soaking the damage as he had in doing the damage I would have been extremely annoyed (still spent 3 Bennies on rolling).

I just have a hard time visualizing a human being who is hit repeatedly by deadly attacks and is in no way affected. The mid level D&D character is at least being worn down by hits. To each his own, I suppose.

Well, in D&D you're at 100% of your ability until you hit 0 HP. At least in Savage Worlds you have wound penalties.

I just assume 'hits' that don't overcome Toughness are flesh wounds or are stopped by armor (or thick hide). It works for me.

 

[BluSponge]

In, frex, D&D attacks that hit reduce a foe's hit point totals. In SW attacks that hit, but fail to equal/exceed a foe's toughness do nothing. Against high toughness foes, or foes that take half damage from some sorts of weapons, many attacks that hit will do nothing at all. This bothers me in two ways: 1) it's frustrating to make attack after attack and have no effect and 2) it seems bizarre that I could shoot a submachine gun at someone and hit him - repeatedly - and do nothing at all to him.

Of course, this bothers no one else in the group but me, so maybe I'm just weird

I stab a dragon with my sword, and roll a 1 for damage. Given the dragon has 300+ hp, I've done effectively no damage to my opponent.

Really. What's the difference?

I just have a hard time visualizing a human being who is hit repeatedly by deadly attacks and is in no way affected. The mid level D&D character is at least being worn down by hits. To each his own, I suppose.

Hit maybe, but the attack isn't necessarily deadly. And if they are hurt enough to become Shaken, then they have been affected -- certainly moreso than a DnD character who takes 90% of his hp in damage in a single hit. The only reason you feel differently about characters being worn down is that it makes you feel better when your dice crap out on you on a damage roll.

Tom

 

[Mythmere1]

The no-effect hit in SW makes a lot better intuitive sense when it's swords against armored opponents than it does when it's unarmored opponents against a tommy gun, that's for sure. But as others note, a hit point system isn't any better when it's unarmored against a tommy gun. You'd take "damage" but with no game effect any more than SW, and SW at least provides for wounds to weaken people's fighting ability under the right circumstances.

Since I'm doing fantasy, I don't have to worry about how guns work ... I've never seen a system where guns work realistically - characters would die in droves unless the game was focused on being completely non-combat (and I LIKE combat much much yes).

So, for fantasy, the wound system works pretty well IMO. I've still only tested it a couple of times, tho.

 

[mmadsen]

I've never seen a system where guns work realistically - characters would die in droves unless the game was focused on being completely non-combat (and I LIKE combat much much yes).

Or most bullets would miss, which is what happens in real life. Actually, most bullets miss, and most that hit don't hit anything vital -- the guy might bleed out, but he probably won't die if he receives medical attention.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

...most [bullets] that hit don't hit anything vital -- the guy might bleed out, but he probably won't die if he receives medical attention.

Some of that depends on the type of round, though. Fully jacketed ammo is more likely to inflict that kind of wound, but other types of ammo can be quite a bit more damaging.

(not arguing with you -- just sayin')

 

[ragboy]

I have to throw my support behind Savage Worlds. I only have a couple of points that haven't been mentioned before, or to highlight a couple that have:

• 
  * It reinvigorated my approach to gaming (even to the point of learning stuff while running Savage Worlds has made D&D/d20 better for me).
  * It's one of the few "universal systems" that I've seen actually work well universally across genres.
  * It has a built in mass-combat system that works really well.
  * The system's robustness allows for a 1st edition AD&D 'feature' that I loved -- having mooks and followers and animal companions and hirelings and PC's all in one mass crazy chaotic battle and still remain fast and furious.
  * I don't like the Chase system or the vehicle combat system, though I don't have a lot of experience with it.
  * Hard-core D&D or other "complex system" players will not like it at first, and will be in "D&D mode." The system allows for very creative combats with Tricks and Tests of Will and Cover and various other mechanics that allow a lot of freewill and cinematic action. More than I've seen in any system.

I have a SW blog in my sig with a bunch of Fantasy mooks/monsters/wild cards and a fantasy adventure...

 

[ragboy]

Since I'm doing fantasy, I don't have to worry about how guns work ... I've never seen a system where guns work realistically - characters would die in droves unless the game was focused on being completely non-combat (and I LIKE combat much much yes).

Not to get totally off-topic but if anything in these games worked realistically, everyone would die early and often. The overarching premise in Savage Worlds and most RPG's is that it's pulp or cinematic action -- there's absolutely nothing realistic about it. Heroes get shot in the shoulder and bad-guys get blown up at the end of the movie/show/book/adventure.

If it were realistic, you'd spend a lot more time healing and a lot less time doing anything else. And it would hurt a lot more, regardless of whether it was sword & sorcery or guns & terrorists.