Sell me on Savage Worlds

[Flamestrike]

On the other hand, at least as expressed in 5e, I think Advantage/Disadvantage is waaaay too much a big blunt object; its even more of one than the modifiers in Mythras, and I tend to find it a bit blunt sometimes. Basically, when you hit "once you have a penalty its this big and there's no bigger or smaller" you've gone too far, IMO.

(That first qualification is because you can have something vaguely like it--SotDL boons and banes, say--and me find it not too much. But this is a case where 5e decided simplicity got to trump any other concern and I can't follow it there).

I hear you, but it's enough for me, especially if they then key special abilities to trigger off the mechanic.

Advantage = +1 die step, Disadvantage = -1 die step. Some combat options (or Edges) then require you to have advantage for them to trigger (or allow you to avoid disadvantage for certain situations).

You might need advantage to make a called shot, and a bipod might cancel out disadvantage for autofire. Aiming might grant advantage to hit, and a scope might cancel disadvantage to shoot at long range. Snapfire might impose disadvantage if you fire and move that turn, and the Steady Hands edge might cancel that disadvantage. Taunting/ Combat tricks vs a creature might grant all attacks against it advantage till the start of your next turn. Etc.

That way its not just a binary disadvantage/ advantage and there is some interplay with the mechanic and 'setting up' a creature for a called shot, or for the triggering of an Edge, and PC's can build around it with Edges etc.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It still adds up to "once you've made this break or downside, no other benefit or downside matters" and that's a bridge waaay too far for me.

 

[Sir Brennen]

In 5E there is no need to double check. They removed fiddly bonuses (that SW retains) for the Advantage mechanic (a welcome addition). Pathfinder and 3.5 for sure (where fiddly bonuses were flying around all over the place, and God help you if you were a raging and magically buffed Barbarian TWF with Power attack).

And yet, some people I play with still do. Switching from ranged to melee weapons, for instance, they'll still glance at their sheet and make sure they're adding Str instead of Dex, and have all their magic bonuses calculated, even though they're already totaled out on the sheet.

What I would like to see:

• A limited number of 'starting' edges you can select (from a list of say.. 10 edges) to begin with to speed up character creation (with the option to swap it out later on once you've picked up the system).
• A greatly stripped down list of weapons and armor (no more than 10 weapons in total, described in very broad terms like 'melee weapon' 'primitive ranged weapon' 'firearm' 'futuristic energy weapon', with very basic stats, and the option to choose a trait or two from a list of no more than 5 traits (long range, autofire, 2 handed, armor piercing etc), and then you can fluff the weapon as whatever you like)
• Basic weapon stats are stripped back to just a 2 stats - a damage value, and a range.
• Partly fixed value damage where all weapons do 1d6(e)+N, with an extra d6 on a raise.
• Armor being simplified to a binary state with math removed. Light armor stops you being shaken, unless you take a wound. Heavy armor stops the first wound (and becoming shaken). Armor piercing reduces the level of protection by one level.
• Combat options trimmed down considerably, and multi-actions removed (or only available with an Edge). One roll resolution (in line with the basic mechanics of roll vs TN 4, 8 for a raise) for all combat actions.
• Fiddly bonuses replaced with a universal mechanic similar to 5Es advantage (Favorable circumstances increases Die step by 1, negative reduces it by 1, the dont stack. Favorable circumstances are required to activate certain Edges or combat options like a called shot etc)
• Powers redone and greatly simplified (no sustainment cost on activation, they simply last 'till the end of the encounter', removing the tracking of PP, basically make them similar to SWSE's Force powers) And a small list of allowed starting Powers for newly created characters to choose from to speed up character creation

They're the main changes I'd make. Play (including character creation) would be so much smoother, faster and just as tactical.

That... would be a very different system. Not one I would find very interesting.

As for all the suggestions for speeding up character creation:

• Limiting Edges to just a handful would actually result in one thing that SW is often accused of: same-y characters.
• Edges and Powers are already limited for starting characters, as they can only take those of Novice rank. (The Edge and Power summary tables make that easy to peruse.)
• Savage Worlds has Archetypes, which neatly package everything you need to play a particular type of character, with some room for customization. It's unfortunate they removed these example starting characters from the core rule book for the current Adventure Edition. However, most setting books contain plenty of specific archetypes for that world.

 

[Blue]

There's also the low cumulation; if you don't do enough to shake them, you don't have any cumulative effect.

If the same conflict takes 3 rounds of 10 min each, that's still faster than 10 rounds of 4 minutes each.

The time per round is really a piss-poor metric, and feels almost deceptive as an argument; how many rounds is as important to the feel of speed as time per round, but the combination of the two, in time per combat, is far more important.

I'm not the person you were responding to, but "amount of time before I get to go again" is a critical measure for keeping players engaged.

 

[aramis erak]

I'm not the person you were responding to, but "amount of time before I get to go again" is a critical measure for keeping players engaged.

Only in systems where players don't have the ability to react.

 

[Blue]

Only in systems where players don't have the ability to react.

I disagree to your stance that it can't occur in systems where players can react. It is a mild mitigation, but only for things that would trigger your reaction, and only until you've used your reaction. It is far from being a cure-all.

D&D has had the ability to react for multiple editions and it's still a thing. I've had D&D games where combat was dead boring because it was 15 minutes between moves, even with the opportunity attacks and other trigger based reactions.

 

[Flamestrike]

I've had D&D games where combat was dead boring because it was 15 minutes between moves, even with the opportunity attacks and other trigger based reactions.

That's down to the DM though.

For example, in the 5E games I run, I use the simple rule of 'When your turn starts, you have approx 10 seconds to declare and start resolving your action, or else you take the Dodge action, and your turn ends.'

The action doesnt have to be resolved in 10 seconds - just declared and/or commenced with either a dice roll, or a miniature move, or a target and spell or action announced with precision.

This simulates the chaos of battle, keeps turns (and rounds, and combats) short and (as an added bonus) keeps the players focused on the table, and keeps phones in pockets.

I've been considering buying a simple Chess timer or similar, set to 10 seconds that I can simply push at the start of each players turn, that rings after 10 seconds, and resets with the push of a button.

 

[Blue]

That's down to the DM though.

For example, in the 5E games I run, I use the simple rule of 'When your turn starts, you have approx 10 seconds to declare and start resolving your action, or else you take the Dodge action, and your turn ends.'

The action doesnt have to be resolved in 10 seconds - just declared and/or commenced with either a dice roll, or a miniature move, or a target and spell or action announced with precision.

This simulates the chaos of battle, keeps turns (and rounds, and combats) short and (as an added bonus) keeps the players focused on the table, and keeps phones in pockets.

I've been considering buying a simple Chess timer or similar, set to 10 seconds that I can simply push at the start of each players turn, that rings after 10 seconds, and resets with the push of a button.

The chess timer has nothing to do with your earlier point about reactions eliminating that time between actions as a critical metric for keeping players engaged during combat.

And really, it being needed is a strong support for that we need to go rapidly and get back to players - that time between turns is a valid key indicator.

Really, this seems to entirely support the point that how long before a player gets to go again is important.

 

[MGibster]

That's down to the DM though.

There's only so much control a DM has though. I know when I run D&D there's always at least one player who can't seem to figure out what their character can do and I get questions like, " Do I get a bonus action?" My group has been using Savage Worlds off an on for over five years and I still get asked if they need to roll a Wild Die when I ask them to make a Vigor check.

 

[Sir Brennen]

There's only so much control a DM has though. I know when I run D&D there's always at least one player who can't seem to figure out what their character can do and I get questions like, " Do I get a bonus action?" My group has been using Savage Worlds off an on for over five years and I still get asked if they need to roll a Wild Die when I ask them to make a Vigor check.

Yeah, different players just have different behaviors when engaging with any system. A timer would be somewhat punishing to some, as it would go against the way they play.