Sell Me On WotBS / Zeitgeist

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Looking to buy a 1-30 4e AP, and I've heard good things about both. Authors are welcome to toot their own horns, if you care to comment. :)

Alternatively, folks are welcome to sell me on any other 1-30 AP for 4e.
 

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Jhaelen

First Post
I don't know about Zeitgeist because the setting didn't appeal to me, but the storyline for WotBS is top notch.
Be aware, though, that you'll likely want to adjust many of the combat encounters, especially the ones in the epic tier.

I'm not aware of a better AP for 4e, especially one that covers all 30 levels.

If you don't mind a shorter AP, and one that hasn't been designed for 4e (well, WOTBS had originally been designed for 3e, too) you have a lot more options:
It's not actually that hard to convert any one of the Pathfinder APs. Mostly, you'll want to get rid of the (plenty) filler encounters, either by merging them into big set piece battles, by replacing them with skill challenges, or eliminating them altogether.
For older D&D editions, there's numerous good sandbox modules and megdungeons that could all be converted to 4e, but I guess that will require a bit more effort.

Since I've quite recently caught the 13th Age bug, I'm currently most eager to play the 'Eyes of the Stone Thief' 'mega-dungeon'.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
I played WotB several years ago for 4E. The edition seemed largely irrelevant to the story. We didn't get very far in it though but what we did play was nothing terribly unexpected for a standard fantasy setting.
 

Matthan

Explorer
Haven't ran either in 4e. I've only read WotBS completely and read portions of Zeitgeist. WotBS is a fantastic epic fantasy that hits the notes you want and expect from D&D. Each adventure usually has some great set pieces (fight in a hurricane, explore an ever burning forest, bring down a flying leviathan) and features an artifact that the party not only gets to quest after, but use and abuse to win the war. It's very much in the vein of Lord of the Rings or Dragonlance. It's traditional fantasy, but done exceptionally well. If you're players want bread and butter D&D, then I think it's an absolutely fantastic option.

Zeitgeist is more complex. It has a lot of moving parts. It has a lot of NPCs and some dramatic upheavals in the world as the story progresses. It's more steampunk than traditional fantasy. It's a few steps away from traditional fantasy. If your group is looking for something a little different and challenging for their next campaign, it's a fantastic option. If you're doing 4e, the biggest concern is probably that it features a lot of player options that bring a lot to the adventure path. If you are using the character builder, you'll need to make some adjustments to address those new options.
 

MoutonRustique

Explorer
I can speak for the early Zeitgeist adventures - what I noted :
- these adventures are built with 4e*
- there are some very, very, very cool (and good) encounter and creature designs
- the setting is very distinctive (as all things different: could be a + or a -, depending on what you want) and is objectively well put together and evocative
- the story and characters are deep and excellent

*This isn't a conversion AND it was done by someone that understood the strengths of 4e. You can feel it in how everything flows, in the types of encounters, in the kinds of challenges. It uses situations that wouldn't have worked as easily in other editions and also avoids the situations that tend to fall flat in 4e.

It's certainly the best 4e adventure design I've seen.
(That's the end of the sentence - and I've played Gardmore Abbey and Harkenwold.)

*I haven't read or played the latter adventures (RL and all that jazz), and I'd be curious to compare it with the later ones that were written in PF and converted to 4e. (I'm not thrilled that they went this route, but I am very grateful they cared enough about their honour to complete the 4e path even after the numbers obviously told them it was not the most profitable use of their time. Sincerely, thank you.)
 

[MENTION=40398]Tequila Sunrise[/MENTION], hi. I directed them both, and did the bulk of writing.

WotBS was meant to fill a hole in that 3rd edition hadn't released any grand war adventure paths, not like Dragonlance. Ten years later I can see its flaws, but I still am proud of it, and think there's enough material that players would get invested in the setting and characters, so that later adventures would have a satisfying pay off. However, I wasn't involved in the 4e conversion, and from other people's comments it suffered from being released fairly early into 4e, when the kinks of the system weren't worked out. Early on monsters have too much HP and don't do enough damage, which was a common problem in early 4e.

Also, a strict following of the XP guidelines meant that the conversion had to add more encounters to get the PCs to 30th level. This led to some added plot threads that people say clutter the core narrative. I haven't read the conversion, and I don't want to besmirch the work of other writers. However, I know 4e combats can take a while to run even in the best conditions, so the extra material might not be the best idea if you want to finish before WotC publishes 6e.

Now, ZEITGEIST I'm still in love with because I just finished it in the past year, so I don't have the distance to critique it. I think we did excellent work in giving NPCs compelling conflicts, interesting personalities, and the occasional character arc the PCs can play a role in. The setting is, yeah, loosely inspired on 19th century Europe, but I shot for it to be a fantasy world that is going through an industrial revolution, whereas I feel like most steampunk stories start with 19th century tech and then just toss in magic or gizmos with no history or grounding.

My goal was to create an exciting story that threaded in elements inspired by real cultural and political challenges so, if you're in the mood for it, you can use it as a way to examine the real world. Or you can just run it as Sherlock Holmes-meets-The X-Files. Also, to be totally honest, I was irked that a lot of TV shows that set up long-term mysteries (namely LOST and The X-Files) clearly didn't have a plan for the revelation, so I made sure before we started to work out how the mystery would unravel. I wanted to make sure we weren't just adding secrets to pad the running time. And thanks to years of advice from great GMs here on EN World, my own experience running, and lessons learned through designing WotBS, I feel confident that the ZEITGEIST adventures provide a dramatic, dynamic story while avoiding railroading. Even in the adventure that literally involves the PCs on a train.

So, well, that's my horn. Toot toot. If you want to get a fuller sense of the campaign, there are a lot of GMs who post on the E.N. Publishing forum about their campaigns.

To [MENTION=22362]MoutonRustique[/MENTION]'s comment, I still did all the conversions to 4e on the adventures that were written for Pathfinder. I love that 4e lets you pace fights well and create all sorts of brief threats that need to be dealt with, as opposed to 3e/PF's style of "did you save? you're totally fine with no narrative effect at all. did you fail? you may as well take a nap."

(I wish 4e had not had the odd math where everything scaled so obviously for the good guys and bad guys, and I wish there hadn't been so many niche powers, feats, and magic items that clogged up the character builder. But you could run the game with just the physical books and you wouldn't be overwhelmed with options.)

The best suggestion I got for ZEITGEIST encounter design came from [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION], who insisted every power of every enemy have a short sensory description. That led to me, later in the campaign, using that description section to work in dialogue that enemies might say during the fight, to give the fights more personality. I found that often when I converted a monster from PF to 4e, I'd add some more tricks or narrative beats to its attacks, and then go back and add those to the PF version too so the Pathfinder players wouldn't miss out.

Like in adventure 5, one encounter has some gremlins, which in PF just make you roll twice and take the worse result. In the 4e version, I instead tweaked the mechanic so they specifically messed with guns - if you tried to shoot at them, the gun would click but not fire, but if you stayed still and kept aiming until the start of your next turn, it would fire then. If you moved before then, the gun would go off as soon as it wasn't aligned with the gremlin. I put that same schtick into the PF version, even though it sort of goes against normal Pathfinder design conceits, because I felt like it offered some fun decision points for players.

(Also, the main fey foe of that encounter causes any ranged attack that comes within 10 feet of him to divert to another target. So after the first couple times you shoot at him and strike an ally, you might decide to try shooting at an ally, which - yes - will cause the attack to divert and hit the boss.)

Tequila Sunrise, what are you looking for in an adventure path? What do your players like?
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Tequila Sunrise, what are you looking for in an adventure path? What do your players like?
Currently I have no stable group. I moved across the country two years ago and I have quite a few gamer friends, and I'm hoping to get a stable FtF monthly game together. And/or a VTT game, depending on free time and how my FtF situation shakes out. Anyhow, based on what you and others have said I've gotten really stoked about Zeitgeist, and I think I can a group stoked about it!

My own reasons for looking into APs is: 1) I'm hard-up for some TTRPG gaming, have played hardly anything in years, and 2) I want to see how the pros do APs. Earlier in the year I picked up Paizo's Rise of the Runelords AP, because I'm a fan of 'classic' fantasy and because Paizo has the most experience writing APs of any company I know of, and I was thinking I'd convert it to 4e. But I haven't, and I'm coming to grips with the fact that I won't -- at least not in the foreseeable future.

So I asked after your two APs because I'd heard great things about them, and I'm looking to minimize prep work. From what you and others have told me, Zeitgeist does have the occasional rough patch -- all resulting from awkward PF --> 4e conversion -- but nothing I can't handle.

Also, a strict following of the XP guidelines meant that the conversion had to add more encounters to get the PCs to 30th level. This led to some added plot threads that people say clutter the core narrative. I haven't read the conversion, and I don't want to besmirch the work of other writers. However, I know 4e combats can take a while to run even in the best conditions, so the extra material might not be the best idea if you want to finish before WotC publishes 6e.
Lol, well if the extra stuff becomes a problem I can always cut it out and make up the XP difference with mission/quest XP. Or just level everyone up to what each adventure expects, I suppose. :)

I'm actually somewhat surprised that the 'level-up to adventure's expectation' variant hasn't made it as an official D&D variant, and that I've never heard of a published adventure which uses it. I'm sure that most pro writers feel a lot of pressure to keep to RAW though, even in cases where it creates a lot of extra work and doesn't necessarily make sense. ;)

My goal was to create an exciting story that threaded in elements inspired by real cultural and political challenges so, if you're in the mood for it, you can use it as a way to examine the real world. Or you can just run it as Sherlock Holmes-meets-The X-Files. Also, to be totally honest, I was irked that a lot of TV shows that set up long-term mysteries (namely LOST and The X-Files) clearly didn't have a plan for the revelation, so I made sure before we started to work out how the mystery would unravel. I wanted to make sure we weren't just adding secrets to pad the running time. And thanks to years of advice from great GMs here on EN World, my own experience running, and lessons learned through designing WotBS, I feel confident that the ZEITGEIST adventures provide a dramatic, dynamic story while avoiding railroading. Even in the adventure that literally involves the PCs on a train.
This all sounds great!

I mentioned this to my wife, who will be a player and who refuses to watch Lost because of the very issue you point out -- which makes me sad because I love Lost until they start going sideways in time, but anyway -- and she was very pleased.

Anyhow, thanks for all your insight -- I'm really looking forward to Zeitgeist!
 
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hirou

Explorer
My 50 cents: promise of playing Zeitgeist was enough to bring back my gaming group after 18 months of hiatus. In total, we've been playing it for the last 3 years, I think, and managed to conquer the third of the whole AP (we're kinda slow, that's not the problem of the campaign :) ).

Fair warning, I haven't played WotBS, but I've bought and read it through, using it semi-canonically as Zeitgeist' world history (about 2000 years prior to Zeitgeist campaign, on another continent). Comparing the two, I'd say that WotBS is a bit more on the side of "traditional epic fantasy with a variety of guest attractions". You command an army, you battle inside the mile-long flying leviathan, you invade the inner mind realm of sleeping dragon, you traverse a literal firestorm to explore a cursed castle etc. Each adventure individually has some very fine scenes and solid plot, and overarching story is complicated and intriguing (especially if you can find a page-long summary from RangerWickett somewhere in these forums...)... but not as much as Zeitgeist. As a sidenote, do read the introductory short-story about assassination of Drakus Coaltongue, it's a fine piece of its own, I think it's in free campaign guide.

Zeitgeist is simply the best D&D campaign I've ever read. It presents a vivid and lively world with very diverse cast of nations and locations, even though lots of places still remain free to DM's fantasy (in my campaign the default answer to "WTF is this" is "it's some unique magic from Yerasol/Malice lands/Northern reaches"). The campaign story can be either surprisingly deep and philosophical (and somewhat reflective of events of WotBS, I'm looking at you, trilith-Gimid-Nicodemus) or akin to a script to blockbuster action movie, depending on your playing group, but either way it's cohesive and, IMHO, a tad better crafted than WotBS.

4e does have its fair share of problems, I must admit. If you end up running the campaign, do pay attention to firearms rules of the campaign, especially grenades, and think in advance how they would interact with multi-target powers, for example. ZG sidesteps the grind of exp/loot with story-driven level progression and magic item/favor requisition system, which is basically unmasked "player wishlists", a necessary evil of the system. Once again, be wary that favor/Prestige/requisition system can be easily broken with Diplomacy optimization, but it's largely dependent on your players and their goodwill to the system/DM, and not on the AP itself.

Last point, use the compiled version of the AP (Act 1-2-3 trilogy) instead of individual adventures, because compilation introduces some minor, but very welcome erratas (like remembering that there are kobolds in Ber; joke's on me, I did forget it completely at first reading as well).
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
My 50 cents: promise of playing Zeitgeist was enough to bring back my gaming group after 18 months of hiatus. In total, we've been playing it for the last 3 years, I think, and managed to conquer the third of the whole AP (we're kinda slow, that's not the problem of the campaign :) ).
Sweet, I am so jealous!

4e does have its fair share of problems, I must admit. If you end up running the campaign, do pay attention to firearms rules of the campaign, especially grenades, and think in advance how they would interact with multi-target powers, for example. ZG sidesteps the grind of exp/loot with story-driven level progression and magic item/favor requisition system, which is basically unmasked "player wishlists", a necessary evil of the system. Once again, be wary that favor/Prestige/requisition system can be easily broken with Diplomacy optimization, but it's largely dependent on your players and their goodwill to the system/DM, and not on the AP itself.
Thanks, you're the second person to warn me about the wonky reputation system. I'll be taking a look at the numbers to see if there's an easy tweak to make. If not, well, maybe I'll use the system as a guideline for who and what the PCs can bring to bear rather than a rule.

Not sure what you mean about 'necessary evil,' that's a funny thing to say. I've heard about DMs using mission-giver rewards in lieu of loot, and it seems appropriate to Zeitgeist's assumption about PCs as agents of the state. Wish lists can be a fun way for players to reduce my prep time, and they're optional from both sides of the screen to boot, so I see only wish-list positives in general. *shrug*

Or maybe there's something about Zeitgeist that makes the 'masked' wish list system awkward?
 

hirou

Explorer
Once again, it's more about my personal view on 4e economics in general. I don't particularly like the image of "X-mas tree" PCs, with a magic item in every possible slot, plus a healthy share of one-use trinkets to spare, by level 10 or so, and that's what happened so far in my game. And you'd be severely gimping the party if you do not distribute the required amount of magic items. And requisition system, when considered from in-game perspective, means that by high paragon the party is sucking their country dry for thousands and thousands of gold coins every month. It's not like these "investments" are undeserved, but it's ... a bit strange if you think about it for too long.
 

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