Selling loot for half price - why?

[Delta]

I treat it as an abstraction; the PCs would get more for some things, and less for others, and take into account dealing with brokers and middlemen, and it all averages out to 50%.

QFT. Today I was actually thinking about a similar abstraction in the boardgame Life: the spaces that say "Taxes Due: Pay half your salary". Obviously, real-life tax rates aren't actually half your salary. But it's some fraction thereof, and the simplest approximation for everyone to handle is just say "it's about half".

That's exactly the level of resale granularity that I want out of D&D, and one of the best things I like about 3E. I seriously don't want to think about shopping or haggling whatsoever in my D&D games; they're a huge drag when I try to play them out.

 

[babomb]

Well, the NPC needs to make a profit. Even if the item's brand new, he's not going to pay full price. A lot of times in the real world, you're lucky to get half price for a used item, which is then sold for only slightly less than a new item.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

So, in the d20 system, how do you gauge "Critical" or "Marginal" success or failure?

Does anyone else have a system for Appraising treasure?

HârnMaster uses a straight percentage system. If your weaponcraft skill is 50% 1-50 succeeds 51-00 fails. Criticals are rolls ending in a 5 or 0 (01 isn’t a critical, but 05 is).

The simplest d20 conversion would be to divide the d20 skill by 5 and use the result as the critical chance.

The system can result in some interesting outcomes, especially when the character or merchant critically fails (though most merchants are much better at assessing an items value than are characters. I’ve had my players woefully underestimate the value of an item, and consequently be really pleased with the ‘good’ offer from a merchant.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

I seriously don't want to think about shopping or haggling whatsoever in my D&D games; they're a huge drag when I try to play them out.

I agree, I always leave it up to my players, and ask them if they want to visit every merchand in Tashal (or Thay or wherever) or if they simply want me to assign a value to their loot.

 

[Jubilee]

We always assume the 50% sale price is for the following reasons:

In cities, people have to pay taxes. There's a tax on the magic item trade. The merchant who buys it from the adventurer takes care of this end of things; thus, you get 50% of its value.

Merchants aren't going to take your word for it on a magic item. They're going to want it authenticated (identified). Then they're going to get "notarized" papers on it so they can turn around and sell it and the buyer can be confident they are getting the advertised item.

I, too, hate having to sit through 30 minutes of haggling between an NPC shopkeeper and another PC. I'd rather go kill something and take its stuff! All the time spent wasted in haggling for 100 more gp could have been spent looting a lair full of gold pieces...

/ali

 

[pemerton]

I believe Sir Walter Raleigh was granted a patent (monopoly) on all beer sales in London. If you wanted cheaper than Raleigh's-sale-price beer, you bought it illegally.

This can be explained in the following way:

A thirsty patron justs wants a beer. She doesn't care if it's Raleigh's or Fred's, but she does care if it is legal or illegal - because if illegal, she runs the danger of prosecution.

Therefore, if she buys an illegal beer she will want a discount for running the risk of prosecution. Therefore, Fred, if he is to sell any beer, will have to sell at a discount (to put it another way - he will have to pay a premium to his patron ie give more beer for a given amount of money).

If you were a brewer and wanted to get more for your beer than Raleigh's-buy-price, you sold it illegally.

This can be explained in the following way:

A brewer justs wants to sell his beer. He doesn't care if the purchaser is Raleigh or Fred, but he does care if the sale is legal or illegal - because if illegal, he runs the danger of prosecution.

Therefore, he will want a premium for running the risk of prosecution. Therefore, Fred, if he is to acequire any beer from a brewer, will have to purchase at a premium ie more expensively.

Thus, the illegal beer vendor pays more for beer, and sells for less.

I say it is unlikely that there would be much of a black market that would pay more and sell for less than the existing market, if doing so was illegal. The profit margin is lower and the risk is higher.

You are asking, in effect, why would Fred engage in the trade described above? Maybe it's the best work he can get. Unlike Raleigh, he may not have the opportunity to go into a business that will deliver monopoly profits.

Well, I haven't had a lot of experience fencing things, but IRL, stolen items are sold for less money than market value, but I believe you will also find that it pays a lot less than the market would as well. The reason someone who steals an item is willing to sell it to a fence or pawn shop for 20, 30 or 50% of its value is because it is stolen. The restriction I keep talking about is that the person could be arrested for trying to sell it through legal channels.

That is, the thief pays a premium (by granting a discount to the pawn shop) in order to avoid scrutiny.

Notice the difference from the beer example above. The customer for beer has nothing to gain by buying black-market beer, but takes a risk - thus the discount to the thirsty patron. The thief has everything to gain from offloading to the pawn shop, and it is the pawn broker who is running a risk - thus the premium incurred by the thief (ie the discount enjoyed by the pawn broker).

In the case of black market magic items, who is running the risk in the black-market transaction - the PCs vending, or the organised criminals purchasing? Assuming that the PCs could, if they like, sell legally to the monopoly - assuming, that is, that the restriction is not on the PCs selling of items, but is on the criminals' acquisition of them for resale (because, ex hypothesi, someone else has been granted a monopoly on the item trade) - then it is the PCs who take the risk by supplying the criminals - hence, they should be paid a premium (that is to say, be granted a discount on the gold they purchase with their magic items ie get more gold for a given magic item).

In this case it sounds like there is no reason why a person would fear selling the magic items legally, they just want more money for it.

Correct. And to get more money, they have to run a risk, namely, of being arrested for selling to an unlawful trader.

Again, what motivates that trader? Presumably, like Fred the brewer, it is the best gig that he or she can get.

 

[S'mon]

Thank you Pemerton, nice clear explanation. If that doesn't get through to him, nothing will.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Look, IRL you can buy goods legally or illegally, and pay a lot less for the illegal version. This model makes perfect sense in a monopoly situation.

Just a minor correction- you'll pay less for the illegal version...depending upon what you're buying. For instance, if you are trying to buy a weapon that it is illegal for you to possess, generally you will pay more for it than someone who can purchase it legally. Its the basis for a common scam in the American gun industry- Gun Dealer X purchases guns legally, but "loses" some of the shipment. Those lost guns are then sold at a premium, sometimes 4x the price of those in his store, to those who are looking to buy guns on the black market. And depending upon how he runs the scheme, Dealer X may collect insurance on top of all that.

If you're not paying a higher cost for the illegal weapon, it is likely that the weapon is in poor condition (possibly malfunctioning dangerously- or cursed in a FRPG) or already "has bodies on it"- its connected to other crimes.

OTOH, buying illegal copies of most IP would be cheaper than the original, as would stolen jewelry and the like.

 

[pemerton]

Just a minor correction- you'll pay less for the illegal version...depending upon what you're buying. For instance, if you are trying to buy a weapon that it is illegal for you to possess, generally you will pay more for it than someone who can purchase it legally. Its the basis for a common scam in the American gun industry- Gun Dealer X purchases guns legally, but "loses" some of the shipment. Those lost guns are then sold at a premium, sometimes 4x the price of those in his store, to those who are looking to buy guns on the black market.

That would be because the buyer of the illegal weapon cannot acquire it legally, and so is prepared to pay a premium, while the vendor could, if s/he wished, sell the weapons lawfully.

In this case, therefore, the risk is being borne by the vendor (the risk, that is, of being prosecuted for selling unlawfully), and thus s/he insists on a premium to compensate for that risk.

The supply and demand curves thus intersect at a higher price.

But in the magic item scenario described above, the PCs could, if they wish, buy legally. Thus, they are the ones who insist on being granted a discount from the illegal vendor.

 

[Treebore]

OK, here is the real reason for the 50% value.

Retailers can get it from their normal wholesale supply for 50% of retail. So why pay adventurers more when they can get it cheaper from their normal supplier?

Magic won't follow the same system though. Realistically such things are handled by auctioning it off or ask a real high price, see if you get it, haggle if you don't but interest is shown.

In the "real world" the profit margin from wholesale to retail can be even higher. Clothing, jeans in particular, are sold at retail for 300 to 400% of what the wholesale cost is.

Is this a rip off? Not necessarily. It depends on how much the retailer is paying on their lease/mortgage, utilities, and employees, etc...

So similiar costs have to be considered in determining realistic price mark ups in even a fantasy world, so you can maintain consistancy if for no other reason.