[Sensitive question] Is there cultural appropriation in gaming?

[MichaelSomething]

Now that I think of it, I'm an Asian person playing Pathfinder... doesn't that means I'm culturally appropriating white people???

 

[Lwaxy]

According to many anti-CA activists, it is not possible to appropriate anything white, no matter what, because ya know, we are all so privileged and stuff *facepalm* Oh and "reverse racism" doesn't exist either. Of course they are kind of right about the latter, racism is racism, nothing "reverse" about it, no matter who hates who.

 

[Lwaxy]

The problem with blackface* when it is "just simple dress up" is that it so rarely is that. Most of the time you see it- at least in the USA- deeply offensive stereotypes of criminality, stupidity and sub humanity are involved, or it has cost someone of that ethnicity an opportunity. And how is an observer to distinguish between the options?

I usually find that very simple. Some college party-goer dressing up as an alcoholic sports player or wife beater? Clearly insulting - and same would be true if a black guy would do the same about a white celebrity, and it would also be true if they would not even paint their face in any case. Mockery is mockery and should be discouraged in either case.

Someone with make up fitting the stereotype Africa/Asian/Mexican/Indian costumes? Offensive, but more because of the stereotypes promoted.

Someone dressing up as their fav TV char (and yes I've seen dark skinned kids using white make up to be superman), comic hero, RPG Char, the black king from the 3 holy kings etc is clearly not offensive unless you are desperately looking for something to be angry about. There are some issues with such TV chars themselves being offending, as in Pocahontas, but that's another issue. Nor is make up for a historical char like Al Capone, Ghandi, Bob Marley a problem. Neither is, as such, paining yourself black if you got the part of Othello - that's only offensive because of the whitewashing element involved in big theater. But for a small backwater production unable to get a hold of a black actor, where is the problem? It is just in our minds.

In my opinion, non-white US folks taking an issue with make up are going to paint themselves in a corner, building their own prison of the mind with clinging so desperately to a past which has little resemblance with what "the whites" are doing today. It's sad, really. I believe most people who use make up to honor, not mock, their non-white heroes would be the first to shout down the dumbass running around with a bone-through-the-nose African cannibal costume (oh how I hate those).

The only reasonable negative comment I heard about dark make up was a relative of mine who takes issue with white people being non-white for a day and then going back to their lives while she can't wash the black of her face and be white like almost everyone else here in Germany. She just wants to be one of many and not stand out. Not so much a problem in London, where she comes from.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

The concept of "cultural appropriation" is 95% bunk and nonsense.

Grabbing ideas from each other is what cultures do, and American culture gives and takes ideas with more gusto than just about any other.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In my opinion, non-white US folks taking an issue with make up are going to paint themselves in a corner...

..building their own prison of the mind with clinging so desperately to a past which has little resemblance with what "the whites" are doing today.

Have you not seen the news on the state of racial relations in 2016 USA? We're still seeing threats of lynching blacks at college football games, banners referencing Amerindian genocide at HS games, racist, sexist & homophobic chants at peace rallies, etc. There's precious little blacks and other minorities want to cling to pre-1960s society, unlike some of our paler countrymen.

What "the whites" are doing today hasn't changed in character, just in prevalence and openness. The problem is lessened, but it is in no way even close to gone. Lawsuits have changed the ability of people & organizations to get away with discriminatory behavior, but I'm not so sure as I was 10 years ago that the actual impulses towards such behaviors have truly withered significantly.

Neither is, as such, paining yourself black if you got the part of Othello - that's only offensive because of the whitewashing element involved in big theater. But for a small backwater production unable to get a hold of a black actor, where is the problem?

We almost never use men to play women in Shakespeare's plays anymore. Why should the one notable role of a non-European character get excepted? To the small backwater theater groups, I sympathize...but I might also suggest presenting another of The Bard's plays.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

Have you not seen the news on the state of racial relations in 2016 USA? We're still seeing threats of lynching blacks at college football games, banners referencing Amerindian genocide at HS games, racist, sexist & homophobic chants at peace rallies, etc. There's precious little blacks and other minorities want to cling to pre-1960s society, unlike some of our paler countrymen.

What "the whites" are doing today hasn't changed in character, just in prevalence and openness. The problem is lessened, but it is in no way even close to gone. Lawsuits have changed the ability of people & organizations to get away with discriminatory behavior, but I'm not so sure as I was 10 years ago that the actual impulses towards such behaviors have truly withered significantly.

Would we be crossing the line into verboten topics if I pointed out that the poisonous spread of "identity politics" on the part of the American left has contributed to the reopening of old wounds by fixating on what separates us into pigeon holes and notions of "collective justice" and revanchism, as opposed to the rights of people as individuals?

 

[BigVanVader]

I'm going to appropriate Gnoll culture by stealing a hyena and eating someone.

 

[Celebrim]

Recently, a major college campus ruled that wearing any costume at all was cultural appropriation.

By the same logic, I don't believe it is possible to RP without being guilty of "cultural appropriation". The real question then, is, should that bother anyone?

I would argue that the crime "cultural appropriation" wants to denounce, is cultural belittlement. I'd generally object to making some cultural analogy, regardless of the culture involved, solely for the purposes of mocking, belittling, or denigrating some group. I likewise believe plagiarism is wrong, but we don't a newly defined crime to describe plagiarism. The actual problems are a small subset of the vague umbrella term "cultural appropriation".

Borrowing elements from another culture is often the opposite of belittling or degrading that culture. Note for example, in the typical damned if you do and damned if you don't double standard that is "politically correct", if someone borrows European culture (say a Japanese manga wants to utilize Christian or Western imagery) that is not "cultural appropriation", but "cultural Imperialism". The argument runs that Europeans have forcibly subverted the other culture. I would argue this view point, that the "non-White" or "non-European" person is always the one that is acted upon, rather than the actor, is itself a subtle and dangerous sort of racism. A similar double standard is that if you show diversity, you are guilty of cultural appropriation; but if you fail to show diversity you are guilty of "white washing". So, for example, Brave can show red-haired people as drunken farting brawlers without mocking anyone, but one cannot make a movie with Polynesians as protagonists no matter how one tries, and yet one would also be damned for not trying. Further, the double standard only serves to stir up racism, in both directions. And finally, the general ideology of looking at persons as being primarily members of a group with a shared life experience and shared racial destiny rather than being primarily individuals with their own differing character and experiences, it's itself racial essentialism of the worst sort.

Or in short, I find the whole concept of "cultural appropriation" to be as objectionable as "white supremacy" or other sorts of racist crap, and I am not afraid to say so. But, since I have no moral authority on this topic, being only a second class citizen, I'll leave it to others to speak the truth to power that I'm denied by virtue of birth.

Here is someone who speaks pretty closely to what I believe on this subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGgj9S8XO7k&index=53&list=LLjbXBzv8kP7jws3_jlBsS4A

You'll note, since he comes from a privileged caste, he won't have to put up with comments like "Shut up, boy", that I have to put up with when I say the same thing. Although I don't doubt that he, like several of my high school friends, has to put up with being called a zebra, an oreo, or a race traitor when he falls out of line.

 

[pdzoch]

It is probably impossible to play any RPG without some sort of cultural appropriation. Many of the monsters are a collection of creatures from a variety of cultures. These fantasy games have created their own culture but have borrowed heavily from world folklore and pantheon. My dragons tend to be Welsh-European form, but occasionally I like to add an oriental or Native American form. This sharing is good and natural and has happened throughout history, sometimes good, sometimes bad, but that is human nature. [Have the Greeks ever demanded that the Romans call Jupiter Zeus? Has anyone demanded that the Italians give pasta back to the Chinese? Should American’s give Christmas trees back to the Germans?]


Playing any race other than human would probably classify as cultural appropriation, but I haven’t heard any complaints from the elven community about all the Legolas wannabes out there and crying “Not all elves are like that!” And I haven’t ever been concerned with a player choosing a racial stock (skin color) for a character different than their own.

As an aside, is playing another gender along the same lines of discussion as cultural appropriation? My wife refuses to play any female character in our games.


I do not worry about any cultural appropriation in the game, but I think the reason it has never been an issue is because the players’ characters are all heroes. Their characters are all doing good things in the world and any cultural demonstration is employed to achieve a positive effect in the game. Likewise, I refuse to portray any of the villains in the game as being from a particular culture other than what the fantasy world has defined. Even the monsters borrowed from other cultures tend to include both benign and benevolent, so it seems balanced instead of malicious misrepresentation. I do think that D&D did make a positive step to avoid misrepresenting cultures (and probably being downright offensive) when they abandoned the Deities and Demigods from the old editions and established their own fantasy pantheon.


I have not seen any DM or player use a stereotype to portray any culture negatively. Although, I am sure some examples have bound to have existed. But I would refuse to play in those games.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I would argue that the crime "cultural appropriation" wants to denounce, is cultural belittlement. I'd generally object to making some cultural analogy, regardless of the culture involved, solely for the purposes of mocking, belittling, or denigrating some group.

XP for that.