Sept 2nd News - I wont be doing Scales of War

[Wonka]

After working on, writing for, editing, developing, and connecting Adventure Paths for pretty much the last five years or so, I suspect that I'm one of the ones who knows the most about what works and what doesn't work for Adventure Paths. They're really, REALLY complicated to create, and even now, going into the seventh one I've helped create, I'm still learning how to do it.

But one of the first things I learned was how important those campaign summaries are.

They're vital. They not only let the GM feel like he or she is an organic and valuable part of the thing (which they are!), but they also serve the same role that a movie trailer does; they get folk excited about the coming campaign. If they don't get folk excited and drive them off... that's a failure of the Adventure Path itself, NOT a failure of the campaign overview.

As for how to get them out there for GMs to check out... that's a little more complicated. Do you put them in the first volume of the AP? Do you preview them in the volume just before? Do you put them online? Do you do all three? Will readers get angry that you're "robbing potential content" from a volume because 2 or 4 pages are "wasted?" All important questions.

This thread's actually VERY educational to me, and the main thing I'm taking away from it is confirmation that AP outlines are indispensable to an Adventure Path, and that the best place to print them is alongside the first installment of the first adventure. We did this with "Rise of the Runelords," but in a weird format. With "Second Darkness," I think we've finally hit on the best way to do them; a two-page outline that appears at the back of the product alongside the first adventure. I suspect it's probably also not a bad idea to throw the thing up online somewhere too, so that prospective GMs can check out the upcoming AP without having to shell out 20 bucks or whatever for the outline. That said, chat rooms and mesageboards and blogs and product briefs are also all great ways to get the information out there—we use all four of them for Pathfinder, and despite the fact that we've revealed major spoilers in so doing, sales of Adventure Path products have only increased.

Don't keep secrets from the GM is the moral of the story, I guess!

This post here! I think James hits the nail on the head here, and this is coming from a man, as he says, with experience writing these. Hopefully someone from WoTC takes note

For what its worth, I really like how Paizo decided to toss the overview in the back of the first module of the AP. I think that works best. You can flip to it while browsing the product at your FLGS, but you might consider putting the same overview online as you mentioned. That way it could be made available for potential DMs who might be interested. But as you also said, if you make the overview available regardless, through blogs and messages boards it can spread without needing to buy anything. With no overview, there is nothing you can do but wait till its all out, blindly pay for what may turn out to not be anything to your liking, or just not get it all.

 

[Spatula]

WOTC can never win apparently.

I'm not really seeing how WOTC is a victim here. WotC can "win" by providing what has become the expectation for plot-driven adventure paths, part of which is to provide a plot overview of the adventures as a DM aid. Or failing that, they could provide sensible reasons for not providing such things. "We don't want the DM to know the plot," is a rather absurd excuse.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I find many of these reactions to be quite disproportionate to the offense here.

Okay, WotC isn't putting in a plot summary. They are simply making their product less accessible and less useful for those who wish to run them. But, it's their product, and if they want to make decisions that most people think is a bad one, then it isn't a slight or anything against customers, it is a failing of their product line. Companies do things that make their offerings less valuable all the time, and people either decide that its worth it or not and move on. I don't really get the outrage here.

WotC is fairly new to the AP business. Give 'em some room. They'll figure it out eventually. Express your displeasure, but don't make this out to be a big issue. It isn't.

 

[Fenes]

Might as well add me too, because I don't get it either.

WOTC can never win apparently.

That's exactly what I am talking about: We are asking for a synopsis because we want such stuff as DMs - like directors wanting a script before they start shooting the movie. You and others only see "WotC Bashing".

If WotC does not understand that some DMs do not want those surprises, and want a synopsis instead, and if it ignores an easy solution like putting the info in spoiler tags then WoTC is acting stupidly and arrogantly in telling us that we should take their surprises and like them.

That, or they are lieing, and don't have a clue where the path is leading.

Get it now?

 

[Nikosandros]

Perhaps WotC isn't providing an overview of the AP, because many of the decisions have yet to be taken and the overall story is being built "on the fly"...

 

[ThirdWizard]

Get it now?

Here's the thing. They think APs sell better, get a larger audience, get more market, whatever... without a synopsis. You disagree. That's it. There's nothing more than that. It's a business decision they are making. It's their business.

I don't know, maybe I'm reading more into this than there seems to be, but people seem to be taking this personally. It isn't personal.

You want a synopsis or you won't run the adventure? Don't run the adventure! If enough people ignore it, then they change their mind because they were wrong. If everybody loves it, then oh well.

They aren't killing puppies here.

 

[Nikosandros]

They aren't killing puppies here.

Maybe they will by the end of the AP... no one can be sure without a synopsis.

 

[Fenes]

Here's the thing. They think APs sell better, get a larger audience, get more market, whatever... without a synopsis. You disagree. That's it. There's nothing more than that. It's a business decision they are making. It's their business.

I don't know, maybe I'm reading more into this than there seems to be, but people seem to be taking this personally. It isn't personal.

You want a synopsis or you won't run the adventure? Don't run the adventure! If enough people ignore it, then they change their mind because they were wrong. If everybody loves it, then oh well.

They aren't killing puppies here.

They don't say "We think this will be better for our business". They say "you'll be happier not knowing it in advance". That's arrogant. They also ignore every experience made by people who did a lot more APs than they did - that's arrogant, and stupid too.

I don't like to be talked down to, especially not by people who try to sell me something. I do take that personally.

 

[Wonka]

WotC is fairly new to the AP business. Give 'em some room. They'll figure it out eventually. Express your displeasure, but don't make this out to be a big issue. It isn't.

The issue is we are trying to HELP them and tell them what this AP needs in order to be better. And they turn around and tell us no, not going to happen. I think thats a pretty significant issue, and apparently I'm not the only one. Yes, they are new at the whole AP thing, but they have to have seen it done before by others. Hell, James Jacobs, veteran of many APs, just posted about the IMPORTANCE of what we are asking for, so perhaps there is something there.

You are right, this isnt a personal decision by WoTC. Doesnt mean its a correct one, or that we are not allowed to be uspet by it. The line that "Companies do that sort of thing all the time" does not make it a correct decision, Ill point to the age old "If everyone else jumps off a bridge..." argument mom used to make here. And Ill also be the first to admit that just because I want the synopsis, it doesnt make the addition of one the correct thing to do either. However I see far more people upset at the lack of a synopsis than people hard fast supporting the lack of one, and in the end it's usually a good business decision to listen to your customers. My 2 copper on things.

 

[ThirdWizard]

They don't say "We think this will be better for our business". They say "you'll be happier not knowing it in advance".

They do not say that. I think it would be prudent to quote the actual text here, since it has changed in the minds of posters over the course of this thread.

The short answer to this question is “no.” The problem is that we’ve mapped out an elaborate plot that covers level 1 all the way through level 30 and there are a number of surprises along the way. Those “grand reveal” moments won’t be nearly as impactful if they’ve leaked out via plot summaries and/or an overview of where the Path is going. I can assure you that the current fears about the lack of a compelling archvillain, or a logically complete structure, or major NPCs, or a real hook are all misguided. Just wait and see!

The relevant part is probably "Those “grand reveal” moments won’t be nearly as impactful if they’ve leaked out via plot summaries and/or an overview of where the Path is going." That's far, far, less arrogant than "you'll be happier not knowing it in advance." Their opinion is that part of the appeal of the adventure is learning those twists as it goes along - even for the DM. Are they right? Probably not. But, its their mistake to make, and I think reading insult into that is putting words in Buehler's mouth.

The issue is we are trying to HELP them and tell them what this AP needs in order to be better.

I agree. It is a stupid decision. I think it will only hurt them in the long run, and eventually I think they will release a summary. If you'll read my post above, I am definitely not taking the position that this is a good decision. But, I think there's a difference between a stupid decision and a malicious one. So, yes, I do agree with you on that note. 100%.